Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

[Farscape One]

I think she mentioned that in Starship Down... Apparently, her goal was to bore Sisko to death...

Yes, she mentioned it in "STARSHIP DOWN" and a quick dialogue exchange in a later episode showed the crew liked it and worked better so Sisko said make the change permanent. I think that was in "ACCESSION".

 

[Mojochi]

I think that is exaggerating the events of the episode. The initial tone is that they are unsure of him and maybe Riker is annoyed about it.

From before the new captain steps onboard, Riker is literally telling Nechayev that he shouldn't be posted there, & posturing over her with full on stink eye. Then, right after his arrival, he gets on a turbolift & Riker sighs & shakes his head, just because the guy gave him a quick rundown. During the ceremony, the literal topic of conversation is "How permanent is this?" as in "Is this guy getting out of here any time soon?". Plus they've already failed to carry out his 1st order, because not only do they think he shouldn't be giving IT, but they don't think HE should be giving it. You'll notice that not until after that, does Jellico treat anyone more forcefully than being quick-minded & on task. He's actually pretty courteous & friendly up front.. The crew makes an absolutely shit 1st impression & Riker just keeps doubling down on it until it's completely horrid

It's obvious. The very 1st thing that happens in this situation is that Jellico is made unwelcome. To see it any other way imho is to show bias towards our regulars because we have a longstanding affinity for them. If these were all strangers to us, THAT would be the only thing we notice. It's not exaggeration. It's what's shown, & to not see it is tinting things with rose colored glasses in favor of our heroes

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I've noticed this thread diverge from being about the contrast between Picard and Jellico and their command styles. To being about Jellico's personality and Riker's attitude in a high stressful situation.

Makes me wonder how a Picard vs Keogh (USS Odyssey) debate would go.

Haha

 

[Makarov]

I don't think it matters that much that RIker doesn't like the guy initially. We know from BoBW and other episodes he'll work with people he doesn't like just fine. I don't think the entire crew being unsure of a new captain is his doing either..

not only do they think he shouldn't be giving IT, but they don't think HE should be giving it.

All we know in the episode is the department heads objected because they wanted to prevent problems. And when see Geordi objecting to the changes he's not saying it's because he doesn't like the new guy giving orders. There's no reason to think he wouldn't have objected if Picard gave the exact same order - the difference is Picard would either have listened to the concern or he would have made himself clear in the first place that it was no questions asked, either way showing respect to the crew that Jellico didn't

 

[Gabriel]

I've noticed this thread diverge from being about the contrast between Picard and Jellico and their command styles. To being about Jellico's personality and Riker's attitude in a high stressful situation.

Makes me wonder how a Picard vs Keogh (USS Odyssey) debate would go.

Haha

Well we don’t have that much info on keogh so it wouldn’t be very long

 

[DonIago]

All we know in the episode is the department heads objected because they wanted to prevent problems. And when see Geordi objecting to the changes he's not saying it's because he doesn't like the new guy giving orders. There's no reason to think he wouldn't have objected if Picard gave the exact same order - the difference is Picard would either have listened to the concern or he would have made himself clear in the first place that it was no questions asked, either way showing respect to the crew that Jellico didn't

Prevent problems, or prevent stress/inconvenience? Because "It will be difficult but we can do it," isn't the same thing as, "we can't do this."

Perhaps Jellico didn't come off as a hard-ass at first ("that's an order") precisely because he was trying to take a softer approach with his new crew? Perhaps his interactions with his old crew even led him to believe that his softer approach had always been effective?

 

[Longinus]

Prevent problems, or prevent stress/inconvenience? Because "It will be difficult but we can do it," isn't the same thing as, "we can't do this."

Well, we don't know, because Jellico didn't even bother to listen what their worries were!

 

[DonIago]

But he wasn't obligated to either, and if nobody flat-out told him "there's no way this can be done", then they should be working to follow his orders.

And we're well aware that officers can lodge formal protests if they're so inclined.

 

[Longinus]

But he wasn't obligated to either, and if nobody flat-out told him "there's no way this can be done", then they should be working to follow his orders.

And we're well aware that officers can lodge formal protests if they're so inclined.

Again, there is a difference between what was the bare minimum he was technically required to do and what was a good idea to do. There is possibility that yes, it can technically be done, but will cause problems that Jellico hadn't thought about, and never knew about as he didn't bother to listen. And if the communication breaks down on such level, that formal protest is the method to get the message through, things have already gone really wrong.

 

[Mojochi]

He knew Riker's service record. He knows the engine specs. He knows exactly where his quarters are just from hearing the room number. He is clearly fully prepped on everything he needs to know. He would know how much staff they have & how switching duty rotations works, enough to already know what their issues would be. You know who isn't fully prepped? Riker & his department heads. They don't know everything Jellico knows about what needs to be happening, & maybe he don't have time to hold every one of their hands, until they can be coaxed about it enough to be OK with it. It's an order. That's enough.

I'm not saying they blatantly demonstrated a personal dislike for Jellico from the start, but it's clear that even before they knew him at all, his addition to the crew is unwelcome, because it displaced Picard. In that ceremony, every head is down. Every expression is sullen. It's like the idea of a change of command is a prison sentence to them.

That tone is bad footing. It's frankly a shitty idea for command to have implemented to begin with, if this is a likely response, because it creates an immediate resentment which they ALL demonstrate, especially Riker. That's something for a new captain to deal with, & the way to deal with it is to shut it down so it doesn't gum up the works, as Riker seems intent on letting it do. Riker is in the position to shape every attitude on that ship, & the shape he's chosen is obstinance & disgruntlement

 

[Longinus]

Right. So you just automatically assume that Jellico knows the ship better than the people who have served on it for years? He is all knowing, and couldn't possibly make a mistake so he obviously doesn't ever need to listen anyone's opinion on anything. Got it.

 

[Makarov]

The significant personnel issues might have been real so for delta shift some intern is going to be in charge of engineering or the transporter room

 

[DonIago]

Like Wesley being in charge of the helm? ;P

 

[Mojochi]

Right. So you just automatically assume that Jellico knows the ship better than the people who have served on it for years? He is all knowing, and couldn't possibly make a mistake so he obviously doesn't ever need to listen anyone's opinion on anything. Got it.

I assume he knows the mission better than any of them... because he'd have to. He also runs his own ship, & as such would probably know all about other ships, including theirs, possibly as good as any of them, because he was hand selected to run it & prepared for that. He commands Starfleet personnel for a living. I think knowing how duty rotations work would be a part of that

Did you miss the parts of the episode where he knew absolutely every detail about all the things he was addressing? People want to act like he doesn't know what he's doing, but everything he does, is done according to a finely tuned plan, & more than that... it all works. In fact, the only thing about his mission that didn't work was a mouthy guy in a high ranking position, who thought he should've been doing it instead, & he even dealt with that pretty solidly imho

 

[Longinus]

Did you miss the parts of the episode where he knew absolutely every detail about all the things he was addressing? People want to act like he doesn't know what he's doing, but everything he does, is done according to a finely tuned plan, & more than that... it all works.

We don't know if any of his changes really accomplished anything or that they didn't cause more harm than good. The changes were for gearing for a battle which never came. For all we know in an actual battle the ship would have blown up because the engineering staff had not been sleeping for two days and were exhausted to the point of delirium, and thus couldn't perform their critical damage control duties properly.

 

[Mojochi]

We don't know if any of his changes really accomplished anything or that they didn't cause more harm than good. The changes were for gearing for a battle which never came. For all we know in an actual battle the ship would have blown up because the engineering staff had not been sleeping for two days and were exhausted to the point of delirium, and thus couldn't perform their critical damage control duties properly.

Right, we don't know any of that to be true. What we do know is that everything he did worked. War was averted, lives were saved. Changes happened & life went on without incident, due in large part to his direction. We also know that all the problems everyone voiced never proved worthy of comment thereafter either. No reminders that a problem now existing was due to some order he'd given that he'd been told would have this effect. He is never shown to be wrong about any of the orders he'd given

The absence of that in the narrative paints a picture of there being no problems, especially once the agitator is relieved from his post. Data himself even confirms the feasibility of many of those orders as well. The orders he gave didn't yield any negative results that were worth mentioning even slightly. Therefore his orders weren't the problematic factor, the response to them was, because once that response stopped happening, everything worked out

 

[DonIago]

I'm kind of reminded of when I had a meeting with my manager during which, while she was generally extremely complimentary, she noted that when I'd been asked to put in overtime, while I was willing and capable of doing so, she'd noticed that I'd sometimes complain about it.

While I don't think anyone exactly wants to work overtime, she had a good point in that to complain about it (out loud, heh) also projected an attitude that could hold me back.

Jellico is essentially asking Our Heroes to work overtime, and as XO Riker is tasked with ensuring that Jellico's order is implemented, given that it's not an illegal or even especially unreasonable order (nobody's able to come up with a compelling reason why Jellico's orders are problematic). Riker is also responsible for listening to those under his command and bringing their concerns back to Jellico...but barring overriding concerns, if Jellico doesn't want to hear about them, he's under no obligation to. Riker should have left it at that.

 

[Gabriel]

For all we know in an actual battle the ship would have blown up because the engineering staff had not been sleeping for two days and were exhausted to the point of delirium, and thus couldn't perform their critical damage control duties properly.

Well actually according to Laforge they would have to be working double shifts. I believe a double shift is 16 hours a day ( I get this number since were having three shifts since 24 divided by 3 gets 8. I think if they were to go to Jellico schedule they would work only 12 hours if it was a double shift. Since 24÷ 4 is six.) either way they would have a least eight or 12 hours of sleep. that’s more than I get on a weekday.

 

[Farscape One]

I don't know about that amount of sleep. The crew has to eat and bathe. Then get ready for another shift. At best, they might get 6 hours (if on 3 shift rotation) or 8 hours (if on 4 shift).

6 hours does seem a reasonable amount of sleep, mainly because that's pretty much the mist I get in a row before I wake up automatically... unless so exhausted, and taking a couple Benadryls, that I can do 12 in one shot.

 

[Gabriel]

I don't know about that amount of sleep. The crew has to eat and bathe. Then get ready for another shift. At best, they might get 6 hours (if on 3 shift rotation) or 8 hours (if on 4 shift).

6 hours does seem a reasonable amount of sleep, mainly because that's pretty much the mist I get in a row before I wake up automatically... unless so exhausted, and taking a couple Benadryls, that I can do 12 in one shot.

If anything they have a good laugh they’re not on double shift they had to work either eight Hours (3 shift) or 6 hours (4 shit) that’s it.
Frankly for me getting eight or six hours straight is a luxury.
So I would say it’s pretty safe to say that while they may be a little stressed out they probably would be pretty alert. And plus I can always just have a coffee or the 24century equivalent of a caffeine shot. Plus it’s not like it’s permanent as soon as they get the specs done then they can go back to normal. I’m pretty sure we were to ask the people in the U.S. Navy if they like those hours that would probably say yes. Because I’m sure at times they can be more stressed out than that.
If anything the 4 shift rotation will be better on their sleep.