Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

[Mojochi]

LAFORGE: Yeah, well, I don't mind making changes and I don't mind hard work, but the man isn't giving me the time I need to do the work. Someone's got to get him to listen to reason.

If he's not getting the time he needs then they will likely be cutting corners and something's going to go wrong....

That's an assumption. He's not saying either of those things. He's saying the situation is unreasonable & thereby the man ordering it, & that's because this crisis is unreasonable, according to the captain, the admiral, & the fact that they are probably violating treaties to send Picard on an espionage mission. Nothing about this is going to be reasonable, & everybody gets a share of that, including Geordi & his team

I can just as easily presume that the worst case scenario for Geordi not getting "The time I need" is that he falls short of making the ordered changes by the deadline Jellico gives him, & probably has to have an earful about it, but then just goes on working at it. There's just as strong a chance that Jellico knows how long the things he ordered will take, & if he's telling Geordi to do it faster than that, he would then expect Geordi to fall short of finishing on time, & is only giving that deadline to see if they can improve the speed, because maybe every minute is vital

Picard has done the very same thing to Geordi in the Sheliak incident, telling him to do something nearly impossible, knowing he might not get there, or at least get there by the deadline, but... maybe he will, & it has to be ordered nonetheless

 

[Makarov]

Picard has done the very same thing to Geordi in the Sheliak incident, telling him to do something nearly impossible, knowing he might not get there, or at least get there by the deadline, but... maybe he will, & it has to be ordered nonetheless

It's in interesting comparison of their command styles when you look at Geordi's reactions in each scenario. In one we have Picard acknowledging that he is asking the impossible and Geordi gets to work, in the other we have Geordi flipping out with no clue if the captain knows what he's doing is having such an impact on engineering, and so he's trying to go around him.

I'm not sure it's all on the mission, as far as I know the shift rotations and engineering changes are Jellico's own decisions - as is the way he went about implementing them. If the war broke out while they were midway through his drastic changes it might not have been the wisest choice

 

[Mojochi]

I'm not sure it's all on the mission, as far as I know the shift rotations and engineering changes are Jellico's own decisions - as is the way he went about implementing them.

but you don't know that. It could all be part of an overall plan from command, that he maybe contributed to, being the man who will command it. Whatever it is, it's clear that people who are condemning the new captain are doing so because they think they know why he is doing what he's doing & it's because he's bad at his job, or he's an asshole or whatever, but no one knows anything at all about why he's doing what he's doing. All they really need to know is who he is, that's asking for it... the superior officer

If the war broke out while they were midway through his drastic changes it might not have been the wisest choice

I surmise that the reason he's ordering all this stuff in the ramp up, is because this is when he knows there probably isn't going to be a breakout of war. That's probably only going to happen after they realize their gambit isn't gettting them what they want without a fight. Geordi, & all of them have until the negotiations to ready for war, because the negotiations failing is what will cause it

 

[Discofan]

Jellico was the better captain in a tense situation where war could break out anytime. Picard is the better Captain for a cruise ship with the occasional weird alien...


Riker: What? This is no longer the Love Boat? How terrible!!!

 

[Gabriel]

Riker: What? This is no longer the Love Boat? How terrible!!!

Now now, I like the love boat. Well except for those stupid short white pants.

 

[Noname Given]

It was his job to bridge that gap and effectively work with them especially if they ended up at war under him. He just throws out unreasonable orders without putting in a word or two to get the crew confident in him. They certainly gave him a chance to correct that with Troi giving him advice.

Sorry, it's NOT the job of the Captain to adjust to the whims of his crew..it's THEIR job to work with him. Starfleet gave HIM command. He's got the job, or they're no good.

Time was also a factor. The ship needed to be reconfigured for a possible war; and there wasn't time to be wasted in various department brefings. That's why the 'Chain of Command' exists. The Captain orders, they do.

For example:
The Captain gave Geordi a set of orders. Geordi went to Riker to see if Riker would be willing to see if Captain Picard was willing to talk to Jellico. What Geordi should have done is (within protocol) voice any objections he had to Jelico at the time the order was given. If Jellico dismisses said objections, Geordi has two options:

- Do his damn job like he's supposed to (IE The Captain gives an order, Geordi carries it out.)

- Refuse of whatever grounds Geordi feels is appropriate, and await a court martial to see if Starfleet Command feels Geordi's refusal is justified.

Going to Riker to try and get either his or Picard to intercede VIOLATES said chain of command and is downright unprofessional.

 

[Farscape One]

There is precedent set earlier in the series regarding Geordi's reaction, and the crew in general. In "Sins of The Father", he tells Riker that Kurn has to relax a bit.

So the behavior, while not fully defendable, is somewhat consistent.

 

[Nyotarules]

Sorry, it's NOT the job of the Captain to adjust to the whims of his crew..it's THEIR job to work with him. Starfleet gave HIM command. He's got the job, or they're no good.

Time was also a factor. The ship needed to be reconfigured for a possible war; and there wasn't time to be wasted in various department brefings. That's why the 'Chain of Command' exists. The Captain orders, they do.

For example:
The Captain gave Geordi a set of orders. Geordi went to Riker to see if Riker would be willing to see if Captain Picard was willing to talk to Jellico. What Geordi should have done is (within protocol) voice any objections he had to Jelico at the time the order was given. If Jellico dismisses said objections, Geordi has two options:

- Do his damn job like he's supposed to (IE The Captain gives an order, Geordi carries it out.)

- Refuse of whatever grounds Geordi feels is appropriate, and await a court martial to see if Starfleet Command feels Geordi's refusal is justified.

Going to Riker to try and get either his or Picard to intercede VIOLATES said chain of command and is downright unprofessional.

But but but Starfleet is not the military????? (Ok they prepare to fight wars we'll ignore that bit ,,,,right?)

 

[Nyotarules]

There is precedent set earlier in the series regarding Geordi's reaction, and the crew in general. In "Sins of The Father", he tells Riker that Kurn has to relax a bit.

So the behavior, while not fully defendable, is somewhat consistent.

La Forge thought he was working on the cruise ship Lollipop...its a good ship

 

[Discofan]

There is precedent set earlier in the series regarding Geordi's reaction, and the crew in general. In "Sins of The Father", he tells Riker that Kurn has to relax a bit.

So the behavior, while not fully defendable, is somewhat consistent.

Remember that when Riker talked to Kurn about that the latter had to stop himself from killing him! Maybe Riker should have taken the hint when Kurn said it.

 

[Noname Given]

There is precedent set earlier in the series regarding Geordi's reaction, and the crew in general. In "Sins of The Father", he tells Riker that Kurn has to relax a bit.

So the behavior, while not fully defendable, is somewhat consistent.

Kurn is at the same level as Riker and BOTH are in Geordi's chain, but Riker would be the one to go to in the situation with Kurn.

In TNG "Chain Of Command" Geordi received a DIRECT set of orders from the ship's Captain (Jellico). Again the time to protest such an order is to the Captain himself (within the bounds of Military protocol; either asking permission to speak freely or asking if he can speak to the Captain away from any other crew in the area <--- so he's not seen contesting/arguing with the Captain in 'public'.)
^^^
The point is: Jellico is teh absolute most senior officer on board the ship; (in full command) and is the superior officer to BOTH Geordi and Riker. In thaft situation it's 100% inappropriate for Geordi to try and get Riker to intercede here.

Again, the reason it was okay in the situation with Kurn is Kurn and Riker are effectively the same rank; and Geordi is subordinate to both, and further Kurn is part of an "echange program" where he's supposed to observe and kearn Federation officer protocol.

 

[Makarov]

It's worth remembering that star trek in general is not the "shut up and do your job" military show. It certainly was not the intention of this one IMO. These are the kind of stories where someone can knock their captain unconscious and still end up the hero of the story. Characters are disobeying one thing or another pretty regularly. In fact I'm sure if Jellico became a regular he'd be breaking Starfleet orders now and then.

 

[Discofan]

Things are different in times of war or times of serious war threat... Disobedience is punished more severely... The chain of command is more strictly enforced... etc... That's what Riker failed to understand.

 

[Makarov]

They can do a mirror universe episode where evil Riker forces the four shift rotation on the department heads, lets Picard die without objecting, and tells Jellico he thinks he's a great captain and respects his command style

 

[Farscape One]

And he would have NO beard or goatee...

 

[Discofan]

They can do a mirror universe episode where evil Riker forces the four shift rotation on the department heads, lets Picard die without objecting, and tells Jellico he thinks he's a great captain and respects his command style

I think we got the Riker from the mirror universe (the people from Schisms must have switched him by mistake). That's why he doesn't want any captaincy. He wants to make sure that Enterprise D ends up crashing on a deserted planet with a mad El-Aurian on it.

 

[Makarov]

I wonder if Jellico would have as much support if Troi had sensed that Picard was alive, and Jellico still declared him dead. Then you'd have Troi and Riker up against him.

And how much would opinions of him change if he hadn't thrown in that line to get Picard released...

 

[Discofan]

I wonder if Jellico would have as much support if Troi had sensed that Picard was alive, and Jellico still declared him dead. Then you'd have Troi and Riker up against him.

And how much would opinions of him change if he hadn't thrown in that line to get Picard released...

Well, that would have been a first for Troi who never sensed anything like that for anyone. A few people went missing throughout the series and she was never consulted to see if she sensed anything about them, positive or negative.

 

[Gabriel]

Well, picard is a fellow officer that I’m sure in some way jellico respected him. Jellico, as a Cardassian expert probably knows clearly what cardassians do to there prisoners. While he might not like the enterprise crew I don’t think he would just let picard die. Him not throwing in that line doesn’t seem like an viable option.

 

[Mojochi]

And how much would opinions of him change if he hadn't thrown in that line to get Picard released...

This is the kind of statement that makes me assume some folks just figure Jellico is to be thought of as not only an antagonist, but as an enemy, & frankly, all evidence points to neither being the case. The man works for Starfleet, & Picard is a Starfleet officer in duress. It's his duty to save him. The fact that he considers him dead, at any point, isn't so much a statement of fact, but a command position, because Riker kept LEADING with that, as the primary concern, which was tactically unsound