when did TOS take place, 23rd century or 22nd century

[Spot261]

When did TOS itself indicate it happened?

PART ONE: EPISODE DATA

"Menagerie Part 1":



So Spock claimed that the events in "The Cage" happened sometime between 13.00 and 13.99 BM (Before Menagerie).

When do "Menagerie Part 1" and "The Cage" indicate that the Columbia crashed on Talos IV?:



Since Spock says "approximately eighteen years" that should be about 17.00 to 19.99 years, meaning that the S.S. Columbia crashed about 30.00 to 33.98 BM.

And:



If the crew of the the S.S. Columbia left Earth an unspecified time before crashing about 30.00 to 33.98 BM and didn't know about the time barrier being broken and faster ships being built, the breaking of the time barrier might have happened anytime after they left and last heard from Earth, and thus possibly before or after their crash about 30.00 to 33.98 BM. Since the Enterprise exists at the time "The Cage" 13.00 to 13.99 BM, it should be at least 13.00 years old in "Menagerie" and possibly over 30 years old.

And there is little clue how many centuries in the future this may be.

"Where No Man Has Gone Before" indicates the possible use of one, two, or three different year counts:



To me this indicates that "Where No Man Has Gone Before" happens between 100 and 200 years after "Nightingale Woman" was written by Tarbolde in the year 1996 TM (Tarbolde-Mitchell date), and thus sometime between 2096 and 2196 TM.

Kirk says:



This implies that Earth has had interstellar travel for at least 200 years, and thus since at least as early as some time during the period of 1896 to 1996 TM.

The service records of Gary Mitchell and Elizabeth Dehner say they were born in Eldman in 1087.7 and in Dellman in 1089.5, respectively. Since they looked to be between the ages of 20 and 40, if their birth dates were given in years the year of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" should have been sometime between about 1109.5 and 1127.7 ED (Eldman-Dellman dating).

If the second number on Kirk's tombstone was the year of Kirk's death, "Where No Man Has Gone Before" would happen in the year 1313.7 KT (Kirk Tombstone dating).

In "The Corbomite Maneuver" Kirk claims, accurately or not, that Earth has had interstellar travel for two centuries:



If Kirk is telling the truth "The Corbomite Maneuver" should be at least 200 years after AD 1966 and thus in or after AD 2166.

In "Miri" They beam down to an Earth-like abandoned town:



This would indicate that the town resembled an Earth town about AD 1950-1970, and that the planet would have resembled Earth about AD 2150 to 2470 if the disaster hadn't happened, which says nothing about the Earth year of "Miri".

In a building, they find a piano:



Which may mean the piano looks like ones made on Earth about 300 years earlier, thus putting "Miri" about AD 2150-2370. or else that it seems to have existed for about 300 years, thus being meaningless for dating "Miri".

In "The Squire of Gothos":



Since Trelane knows of Napoleon, crowned in AD 1804, and of Alexander Hamilton's death in AD 1804, if Gothos is about 800 to 1,000 light years from Earth, the date of "The Squire of Gothos" would be in or after AD 2604 to AD 2804, if Jaeger and Kirk's reasoning is correct.

But since Trelane can move his planet Gothos in space, and since Trelane knows Earth words and can speak Earth languages, it seems very likely that Jaeger and Kirk were wrong about Trelane's source of information about Earth, and thus it is not a valid clue to the date of "The Squire of Gothos".

In "Shore Leave" Sulu finds a pistol on the planet:



Assuming that in the alternate universe of Star Trek they stopped making police special pistols about AD 1900 to 2050, and assuming that Sulu's couple of centuries means one to two centuries, "Shore Leave" would be about AD 2000 to 2250.

In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" they travel back in time to Earth:

MAN [OC]: This is the five thirty news summary. Cape Kennedy. The first manned Moon shot is scheduled for Wednesday, six am Eastern Standard Time. All three astronauts who are to make this historic
(Kirk signals it cut off)
KIRK: Manned Moon shot? That was in the late 1960s.
SPOCK: Apparently, Captain, so are we.

So apparently the first manned moon shot happens in the late 1960s - between 1966.66 and 1969.99 TY (Tomorrow is Yesterday dating) in the alternate universe of Star Trek. Later:

FELLINI: I am going to lock you up for two hundred years.
KIRK: That ought to be just about right.

Which, if taken seriously, implies that part of Kirk's lifetime will be sometime between about 2066.66 and 2269.99 TY.

In "Space Seed" Spock says:



Therefore, "Space Seed" should happen sometime between 2090 SS and 2999 SS (Space Seed dating).





So faster than light interstellar travel did not start until about 2016-2020 SS, or possibly much later. Since the S.S. Valiant traveled interstellar space 200 years before "Where No Man Has Gone Before", "Where No Man Has Gone Before" should happen in or after 2216-2220 SS.







So Kirk and Co. guess than Khan left Earth sometime in the early or the mid 1990s SS, and thus between 1990.00 and 1996.66 SS.



So Kirk states that Khan left Earth 200 years earlier putting "Space Seed' in about 2090.00 to 2296.66 SS. Since the Valiant left Earth in or after 2016-2020, "Where No Man Has Gone Before" should happen in or after 2216-2220 SS and "Space Seed" should happen in about 2216-2296.66 SS.

In "Metamorphosis" they meet Zefram Cochrane:



Spock doesn't correct McCoy, suggesting that Cochrane disappeared sometime between 125 and 175 years earlier, or at the most between 100 and 200 years earlier. So Cochrane should have disappeared sometime between 125 and 175 PM (Pre Metamorphosis dating) or possibly sometime between 100 and 200 PM.



So if Cochrane was between 87.00 and 87.99 years old when he was lost in space, he should have been born sometime between 262.99 and 212.00 PM, or at the most sometime between 287.99 and 187.00 PM.

If Cochrane was between twenty and forty when he "discovered the space warp" that should have been between 242.99 and 172.00 PM, or at the most between 267.99 and 147.00 PM.

In "Wolf in the Fold" the computer is asked about the meaning of "redjac":



This implies that if Hengist and Tark are correct, "Wolf in the Fold" should be about 200 to 1,000 years after AD 1888 when Jack the Ripper killed, and thus sometime about AD 2088 to AD 2888.

If Jack the Ripper killed in AD 1888, and also during the 19th century according to the WF dating system (Wolf in the Fold dating) the year one in the WF dating system would be sometime between 12 BC and AD 88.

Dates given in the WF system include:



The latest date is 2156 WF, which would be sometime between AD 2144 and AD 2244. Thus "Wolf in the Fold" should happen sometime between AD 2144 and AD 2888.



This implies that "Wolf in the Fold" is probably happening years or decades after 2156 WF.

In "Requiem for Methuselah" Mr. Flint turns out to be unusually old:





If Flint correctly converted his birth year to modern reckoning, 3834 BC can be converted to a date in the Holocene Calendar or Human Era reckoning by subtracting 3834 from 10,000 to get 6166 HE.

If Flint was born between 6166.00 and 6166.99 HE, and if he was 6,000.00 to 6,000.99 years old in "Requiem for Methuselah", the date would be between 12166.00 HE and 12167.98 HE. Converting those dates to Anno Domini by subtracting 10,000, "Requiem for Methuselah" should be between AD 2166.00 and AD 2167.98.

If Spock's estimate of Flint's age was accurate to within 250 years, "Requiem for Methuselah" should be between 11916.00 HE and 12416.99 HE, or AD 1916.00 to AD 2416.99.

If Spock's estimate of Flint's age was accurate to within 500 years, "Requiem for Methuselah" should be between 11666.00 HE and 12666.99 HE, or AD 1660.00 to AD 2666.99.

If Spock's estimate of Flint's age was accurate to within 1,000 years, "Requiem for Methuselah" should be between 11166.00 HE and 13166.99 HE, or AD 1166.00 to AD 3166.99.

And if Spock's estimate of Flint's age was not precise to within 1,000 years Spock would probably have said something like Flint's age was on the order of five to seven thousand years.

In "The Savage Curtain" briefing room scene:



So when Scott gestured for emphasis Spock corrected him about the present direction to the planet Earth, which would be constantly changing as the Enterprise orbited Excalpia. Spock corrects people for not keeping track of the ever changing direction to Earth. But Spock didn't correct Scott for any error in the much simpler calculations needed to state how long ago Abraham Lincoln died.

Abraham Lincoln was shot on April 14, 1865 and died on April 15, 1865. Which is roughly about AD 1865.2814 to AD 1865.2876. Adding 300.00 to 300.99 years gives a date of AD 2165.2814 and AD 2166.2776.

If Spock would have accepted Scott's "three centuries" if it was accurate within 25 years, "The Savage Curtain" would happen sometime between AD 2140.2814 and AD 2190.2876.

If Spock would have accepted Scott's "three centuries" if it was accurate within 33.33 years, "The Savage Curtain" would happen sometime between AD 2131.9514 and AD 2198.6176.

If Spock would have accepted Scott's "three centuries" if it was accurate within 50 years, "The Savage Curtain" would happen sometime between AD 2115.2814 and AD 2215.2876.

If Spock would have accepted Scott's "three centuries" if it was accurate within 75 years, "The Savage Curtain" would happen sometime between AD 2090.2814 and AD 2241.2876.

If Spock would have accepted Scott's "three centuries" if it was accurate within 100 years, "The Savage Curtain" would happen sometime between AD 2065.2814 and AD 2265.2876.

But I find it very hard to believe that Spock would not have correct Scott about the time since Lincoln's death if it was actually less than 200 years or more than 400 years. So "The Savage Curtain" should have been sometime between AD 2065.2814 and AD 2265.2876.

PART TWO: SUMMARY

So several TOS episodes give a date range in unspecified dating systems. Any of those unspecified dating systems could be Anno Domini dating, but since they are not specified there is no way to be certain about that.

A few TOs episodes do give evidence to estimate a date range in Anno Domini dating.

If the evidence is interpreted one one way, "Miri" might happen sometime about AD 2150-2370, but the evidence can be interpreted as not implying a date range for the episode.

"The Squire of Gothos" might happen in or after AD 2604 to AD 2804 if interpreted one way, but can be interpreted as having no evidence for its date range.

Kirk's quip in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", if taken seriously, implies that part of Kirk's lifetime will be sometime between about 2066.66 and 2269.99 TY. and if Kirk & Spock use Anno Domini dating some part of Kirk's lifetime will be sometime between about AD 2066.66 and AD 2269.99. If those assumptions are correct.

Assuming that in the alternate universe of Star Trek they stopped making police special pistols about AD 1900 to 2050, and assuming that Sulu's couple of centuries means one to two centuries, "Shore Leave" would be about AD 2000 to 2250. This seems like the best range so far, though based on two assumptions.

"Wolf in the Fold" should be about 200 to 1,000 years after AD 1888 when Jack the Ripper killed, and thus sometime about AD 2088 to AD 2888, if Hengist and Tark are correct about how long ago that was.

"Wolf in the Fold" should also be after 2156 WF, and thus after sometime between AD 2144 and AD 2244.

"Requiem for Methuselah" should be between 11166.00 HE and 13166.99 HE, or AD 1166.00 to AD 3166.99.

"The Savage Curtain" should have been sometime between AD 2065.2814 and AD 2265.2876.

Could you expand on this please?

 

[Gabriel]

Well at the end of the day I’m glad the went with a different uniform for the rest of the series

 

[BK613]

I see what you're seeing. But I don't see the same pattern on his other sleeve. Nor do I see the same pattern in this shot at the end of the episode:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x00hd/thecagehd2172.jpg

Did he get promoted by Pike right before the end of the episode?

Yes in the end it is the perfect mirage because even with the other screen shots and the other sleeve factored in, it still looks like what I described on my 55" screen in that particular shot( even in motion).

 

[yotsuya]

The dating for TOS was all over the place, Generally 200 years in the future (note, I do not for a moment believe that is intended to be exactly 200 years in the future) but often more. The first concrete date we have for a contemporary item is in Star Trek II. The Romulan Ale was bottled in 2284. McCoy's quip about it taking a while to age is a joke that that date is very recent. When TNG set the exact date that became 2 years old, but Star Trek II happened after 2284 from the moment it came out. So not only did it set it in the 23rd century but late in the 23rd century.

If you look at all the dates so carefully laid out in so many posts in this thread, you will find that in virtually every case, if you write out the exact counting of years since the event, they all start with 200. Space Seed was 280. If you pay attention to how people talk, a lot of people round years to something even if they don't know the exact number of years (or don't care to calculate it). So most of the round 200 year comments fit with TOS happening from 2266 to 2269 - exactly 300 years after it aired. Those that don't fit that number about the same as those that are much higher.

So The Making of Star Trek sets it in the 23rd Century and Star Trek II puts TOS in the middle of the century. All the TOS numbers are inconclusive but most agree with that positioning.

 

[BK613]

The dating for TOS was all over the place, Generally 200 years in the future (note, I do not for a moment believe that is intended to be exactly 200 years in the future) but often more. The first concrete date we have for a contemporary item is in Star Trek II. The Romulan Ale was bottled in 2284. McCoy's quip about it taking a while to age is a joke that that date is very recent. When TNG set the exact date that became 2 years old, but Star Trek II happened after 2284 from the moment it came out. So not only did it set it in the 23rd century but late in the 23rd century.

Note necessarily. A co-worker of mine that home-brews beers and ales let me know about in-bottle fermentation and best-after dates. As I wrote a number of years ago:

If the date is Terran, the fact that we are talking about an ale (and not a wine) would allow that date to be in TWOK's future and not its past. Some ales undergo a further fermentation process after bottling. Such bottle-fermented ales often have a best after date that indicates when this extra fermentation process is supposed to be complete. It is my understanding, and I am no expert, that drinking the ale before this date is perfectly safe. Typically, though, IRL, ales aren't distributed by bottlers until this date is achieved but who knows when in the process the smuggled Romulan ale was purloined.

So the date could be next year, ten years or fifty years into TWOK's future. And that possibility really makes McCoy's statement make sense.

Thread for context: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/kirk-old-too-soon.277043/page-3

 

[yotsuya]

Note necessarily. A co-worker of mine that home-brews beers and ales let me know about in-bottle fermentation and best-after dates. As I wrote a number of years ago:

Thread for context: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/kirk-old-too-soon.277043/page-3

And if you read up on how long it takes to ferment an ale, it is weeks, not years.

 

[BK613]

And if you read up on how long it takes to ferment an ale, it is weeks, not years.

Yes, for an Earth ale. For a Romulan ale....

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And if you read up on how long it takes to ferment an ale, it is weeks, not years.

No one knows anything about Romulan ale.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

No one knows anything about Romulan ale.

That's true. We just know it's blue. And Kirk's reaction to it suggests it's a stiff drink (if I recall). On The Big Bang Theory, Penny mistook a bottle of Romulan ale for mouthwash.

 

[Kor]

Flat blue liquid with no head? Bah! I wouldn't give such an "ale" a very high review.

And Kirk actually said 2283, not 2284.

Kor

 

[yotsuya]

That's what going from memory gets me. Still, with Earth spirits, it is rare that something must sit for years before being drinkable. And from the conversation it has to be a recently passed date. And from Kirk's expression it seems to be potent and fresh. Anyway, I've always taken that as a recently passed date (originally I considered it the year the movie took place).

 

[BK613]

That's what going from memory gets me. Still, with Earth spirits, it is rare that something must sit for years before being drinkable. And from the conversation it has to be a recently passed date. And from Kirk's expression it seems to be potent and fresh. Anyway, I've always taken that as a recently passed date (originally I considered it the year the movie took place).

But then you have to choose. Khan and Chekov make it clear that the movie occurs some 200 years after 1996 (" ...20th century genetic engineering", "...lost in space from the year 1996...", "...200 years ago, I was a prince..." ). 2283 - 1996 = 287. That's not 200 years, that's almost 300. Having 2283 be in the future of TWOK resolves that incongruity.

 

[yotsuya]

But then you have to choose. Khan and Chekov make it clear that the movie occurs some 200 years after 1996 (" ...20th century genetic engineering", "...lost in space from the year 1996...", "...200 years ago, I was a prince..." ). 2283 - 1996 = 287. That's not 200 years, that's almost 300. Having 2283 be in the future of TWOK resolves that incongruity.

Khan was going off the 200 years Kirk told him so that is inconclusive. And as someone pointed out, not using the Gregorian calendar in Star Trek means they may not have our connection to dates. Especially when they are out of touch with Earth culture. But for me Star Trek II set the time of all of TOS and TNG only adjusted it by 3 years.

 

[Kor]

Kirk graciously gave Khan lots of access to the ship's computer library, so he would have easily figured out the exact date, and whether the estimate of 200 years was accurate or not.

Kor

 

[MAGolding]

The dating for TOS was all over the place, Generally 200 years in the future (note, I do not for a moment believe that is intended to be exactly 200 years in the future) but often more. The first concrete date we have for a contemporary item is in Star Trek II. The Romulan Ale was bottled in 2284. McCoy's quip about it taking a while to age is a joke that that date is very recent. When TNG set the exact date that became 2 years old, but Star Trek II happened after 2284 from the moment it came out. So not only did it set it in the 23rd century but late in the 23rd century.

If you look at all the dates so carefully laid out in so many posts in this thread, you will find that in virtually every case, if you write out the exact counting of years since the event, they all start with 200. Space Seed was 280. If you pay attention to how people talk, a lot of people round years to something even if they don't know the exact number of years (or don't care to calculate it). So most of the round 200 year comments fit with TOS happening from 2266 to 2269 - exactly 300 years after it aired. Those that don't fit that number about the same as those that are much higher.

So The Making of Star Trek sets it in the 23rd Century and Star Trek II puts TOS in the middle of the century. All the TOS numbers are inconclusive but most agree with that positioning.

You are forgetting that in "The Savage Curtain" Scott said that Abraham Lincoln died 300 years ago (in AD 1865), and Spock did not correct him. AD 2265 would be 400 years after Lincoln died and Spock could not have omitted correcting Scott if it was 400 or more years since Lincoln died.

"The Savage Curtain" might happen in 2268 or 2269 of some Earth calendar, but to me it seems impossible me for it to happen in or after AD 2265.

As for 2283 in WOK, that could be a date 2283 Romulan years after an event in Romulan history, or possibly 2283 Earth years after some event in Earth history, or possibly a stardate. And was 2283 the time the Romulan ale was bottled in the past or the time it will be ready to drink in the future?

Since Kirk did not say "AD 2283" or "2283 AD" you and others are simply assuming it must be AD 2283.

But then you have to choose. Khan and Chekov make it clear that the movie occurs some 200 years after 1996 (" ...20th century genetic engineering", "...lost in space from the year 1996...", "...200 years ago, I was a prince..." ). 2283 - 1996 = 287. That's not 200 years, that's almost 300. Having 2283 be in the future of TWOK resolves that incongruity.

"Space Seed" is 200 years after Khan left Earth in 1996 SS (Space Seed date system), and WOK is also 200 years after Khan left Earth in 1996 SS, despite being 15 years later than "Space seed" (or 20 years according to TFF). Since both cannot be exactly 200 years after 1996 SS the characters must be rounding one or both numbers a bit.

Assuming that the characters round 200 years as much as is possible, so that 200 years is sometime between 100 and 300 years, "Space seed" must happen between 2096 SS and 2281 SS and WOK must happen between 2111 SS and 2296 SS.

And if Captain Terrell looked about 30 to 60 years old to Khan, Khan's statement that his followers swore to obey him 200 years before Terrell was born is significant. That would make WOK happen about 2126 SS to 2356 SS, and also before 2296 SS, thus making "Space Seed" happen between 2111 SS and 2281 SS.

Assuming that the characters only round by up to 15 years, "Space Seed" would happen between 2181 SS and 2196 SS, and WOK would happen between 2196 SS and 2211 SS. The statement about Terrell's birth indicates that WOK could happen about 2211 SS to 2211 SS, and thus that "Space Seed" must happen about 2196 SS.to 2196 SS.

And whether someone manipulates the data to make TOS happen in the 22nd or 23rd century in the SS dating system, it is uncertain when those centuries are in the Anno Domini dating system.

Khan was going off the 200 years Kirk told him so that is inconclusive. And as someone pointed out, not using the Gregorian calendar in Star Trek means they may not have our connection to dates. Especially when they are out of touch with Earth culture. But for me Star Trek II set the time of all of TOS and TNG only adjusted it by 3 years.

Kirk graciously gave Khan lots of access to the ship's computer library, so he would have easily figured out the exact date, and whether the estimate of 200 years was accurate or not.

Kor

Yes, I agree.

It would have been very easy for Khan to note the present stardate or the present Earth date on a file he was studying while learning how to take over the Enterprise, and have the computer convert that date to one in a format he was familiar with, and calculate the exact length of time since he left Earth. And when he was settled on Ceti Alpha V he might have been given a chronometer and/or an eternal calendar program to keep track of Earth time as well as a program to keep track of Ceti Alpha V time.

And of course he might have asked his wife Lieutenant Marla McGivers, a number of questions about Earth history and interstellar matters. Khan seems to have learned about a number of things which only a member of future society, or future records, could have told him. Of course how much Marla could have told Khan depends on how much she knew. What was Marla's specialty?

PS I may add that TOS certainly happens during the 22nd century of some Earth calendars and in the 23rd century of some other Earth calendars. What is uncertain is which century TOS happens in the Anno Domini dating system.

 

[BillJ]

You are forgetting that in "The Savage Curtain" Scott said that Abraham Lincoln died 300 years ago (in AD 1865), and Spock did not correct him. AD 2265 would be 400 years after Lincoln died and Spock could not have omitted correcting Scott if it was 400 or more years since Lincoln died.

Maybe Spock just gave up at that point? Figuring it was useless correcting humans on their own history?

 

[Mytran]

The "we estimate two centuries" quote can be attributed to time dilation on board the Botany Bay.
And since Khan was most interested in the engineering facilities of the Enterprise, he may not have had time for more general enquiries into the exact time period (made more complex if the technical manuals were organised by stardate)

As for Spock only focusing on one of Scotty's errors in Savage Curtain - well, Spock displayed some odd behaviour in Season Three on more than one occasion. I guess having your brain ripped out and reattached will do that to you

 

[Gabriel]

Well at the end of the day I like 2200”s the enterprise seems to high tech for only 180ish after the invention of warp drive if it was in the 2100’s

 

[BK613]

The "we estimate two centuries" quote can be attributed to time dilation on board the Botany Bay.

I disagree, because it is not the only reference in the episode to the specific passage of time. McCoy repeats it to Khan when Khan wakes up ans then there is this:

KHAN: Captain, I wonder if I could have something to read during my convalescence. I was once an engineer of sorts. I would be most interested in studying the technical manuals on your vessel.
KIRK: Yes, I understand. You have two hundred years of catching up to do.

Not the kind of thing to be said if it was two centuries of dilation but three centuries in actuality.

-----------------------------------
Edited to add; I never did the the math before but Flint's age of 6000 years minus his birth year of 3834 BC give a date of 2166 AD. So another reference for the 22nd century.

 

[Mytran]

I disagree, because it is not the only reference in the episode to the specific passage of time. McCoy repeats it to Khan when Khan wakes up ans then there is this:
Not the kind of thing to be said if it was two centuries of dilation but three centuries in actuality.

Two different situations:

1. How long was Kahn sleeping? With TD, an estimate of 2 centuries
2. How much catching up does Kahn have? Two hundred (and something) years' worth. There was probably a lot of information lost in WW3.

Edited to add; I never did the the math before but Flint's age of 6000 years minus his birth year of 3834 BC give a date of 2166 AD. So another reference for the 22nd century.

Once you're into the thousands of years age-group, would a century either side be worth mentioning?