Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"

[BillJ]

Everybody does - it's called audience interpretation and is different (usually) than authorial intent.

You're not allowed to do that. CBS is watching.

 

[Alan Roi]

Everybody does - it's called audience interpretation and is different (usually) than authorial intent.

I've heard that step-family erotica is particularly in demand these days, in part because mixed families are now very common and the idea is still quite taboo and fetishised by many because of that fact.

Alternatively, many people interpret on character 'putting the squeeze' on another as sexual, even though it isn't necessarily so, but it looks that way to a casual observer and has since the beginning of time.

 

[MarsWeeps]

- Ecstatic Culber is back, though not sure it was earned

You know what they should do for next episode?

Stamets visits Culber in Sickbay, Culber gets out of bed, a little groggy. Stamets reaches towards him to offer support and they embrace. Stamets pulls back, looks into Culber's eyes while he cradles his face...smiles and then...SNAPS HIS NECK!

Culber falls to the ground in the exact same spot where he died first time. Stamets looks down, expressionless, reaches over and taps a button on his uniform. The holo-image of Stamets disappears and Tyler/Voq is standing there. He taps his Section 31 communicator and says "It's done." Screen changes to Georgiou on the Section 31 ship who replies "Excellent! Details of next assignment will follow shortly." Episode ends with an evil Smile on Georgiou's face.

 

[137th Gebirg]

So, to be clear, you want a large cross-section of fans’ heads to explode.

It would be quite darkly amusing.

 

[MarsWeeps]

So, to be clear, you want a large cross-section of fans’ heads to explode.

That usually happens after every episode, no matter the reason.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Well, yeah...

 

[rhllot]

I wonder if "alligators" is a derogatory name for the Gorn?

Space alligators!

 

[Alan Roi]

That usually happens after every episode, no matter the reason.

The goal of all great art is to provoke a reaction, the more intense the reaction, the greater the art.

 

[Amaris]

I wonder if "alligators" is a derogatory name for the Gorn?

I interpreted it as such when I heard him say it.

Well ok, if we change completely what section 31 is to be a legitimate CIA/MI6 organisation, then my objection obviously evaporates, but I'm arguing about the section 31 presented on screen. Assassinations, genocide, no moral compass but nationalism. Starfleet Intelligence had always been name dropped along the way too, and that could function perfectly well in a "better world" as a legitimate, above board, Intelligence agency. If section 31 and Starfleet Intelligence are to be presented as one and the same, then as I've said upthread, I will happily go along with the retcon and ignore the fact it is ludicrous nobody has heard of them by the late 24th century when people from this era will still be alive. But that isn't what s31 have been shown to be, to date, so I can only go with what I have.

This. I understand there would be an organization that would prevent rival entities from blowing us all to kingdom come with a superweapon, or something like that, but assassinations and genocide fall well outside of that.

I used to have starry eyes for the United States. Being born here, I was raised with the notion that we were a shining city on a hill, a beacon of freedom. It was implicit that the United States didn't do bad things to other countries, only good things that would free them from their chains.

Then I became a student of history, and learned about how we treated citizens in our own country. I read about the wars we fought and the actions we engaged in to claim our ideological victories, and the covert operations we engaged in to prop up puppet governments that crushed their own citizens in order to give ourselves full access to their resources.

These weren't things we had to do, but were instead actions we took to make ourselves bigger, more powerful, to put us in control of all we could grasp, and we still do it now, taking advantage of our planet, subverting the rights of millions, just so we can have a little more, just a little more. All the while, so many of our own citizens are utterly ignorant of what goes on beneath their noses so they can live what they believe is a normal life.

It was my fervent hope that humanity stepped beyond that. I fell in love with Star Trek because of Kirk's moral certitude that even though we could, even though it was in our power, we would not kill today. Then TNG happened, and my heart soared at the prospect of a Federation that had built upon that wisdom, that had grown in its emotional and intellectual maturity, that things were progressing.

Even with its darker tone, DS9 pushed the ideals of the Federation, showing our Starfleet compatriots as holding fast to those beliefs, and working to build harmony and peace between cultures, as hard a tightrope as that was to walk with the Cardassians and the Bajorans, but they still tried.

Then Section 31 happened and my spirits started to sink. Now we have them in DSC, and they're fully endorsed by the Federation, flashing their badges right out in plain sight. This episode also had Cornwell making excuses for them as she spoke of the virtues in nation building. So here we had another covert organization with a Banana War (yeah, sounds like a silly name but the actual events were atrocious) mentality, and it's all good, even the bad things.

I despise jingosim and nationalism, and here we have it in our little show about how humanity overcomes adversity, but even after World War 3, nationalism not only exists as a branch of a supposedly benevolent organization, but is pushed just as strongly despite the outcomes it has created in the past. There is no excuse for that. The United States is becoming more nationalistic every day, and so the last thing I want is to watch a show I loved for its optimistic view of humanity decide that nationalism is okay, and that engaging in nation building is an aspect of the Federation's Manifest Destiny.

For me, 6 out of 10 was being generous, and those 4 points relate directly to Section 31.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You're not allowed to do that. CBS is watching.

As long as you pay the bill, CBS doesn't care.

 

[Terok Nor]

It wasn't a great episode but it was entertaining enough. Burnham being the focus of every episode and appearing in almost every scene means it's never going to be a favourite show of mine but I enjoy Pike and the bridge crew. Tilly and the evil blob storyline ended finally. It lasted about 4 episodes longer than it should have. Not bothered about Culber. Just like everyone else who isn't Burnham, he's an underdeveloped supporting character. Alive or dead that's not going to change since it's unequivocally The Michael Burnham Show and always will be. Nice to see the Emperor again but Section 31 being out in the open so blatantly goes against their DS9 appearances when they were the biggest secret in the Federation. Even if they're disavowed it seems unlikely such an organisation could ever be totally erased from public consciousness.

The special effects on this show are amazing. Movie worthy.

 

[Galaxy]

I enjoyed this, bus found it the weakest episode of the season so far. Basically they were having difficulty in connecting the dots from last season. May and the Spore People could not manifest themselves in the "regular" universe (however they apparently have no problems in building an entire Bio-transporter), and this was the reason May initially gave for not being able to recreate Culber. It is then pointed out that Culber might be an exception because they have his DNA. What? They only thing transferred to the network was essentially his "Katra," his body and therefore his DNA stayed where it is.

 

[cooleddie74]

So, to be clear, you want a large cross-section of fans’ heads to explode.

It would be quite darkly amusing.

It worked when ENT gave us 22nd century Romulan cloaking devices. I'm still laughing at the fanboys who claim that took a huge dump on continuity.

 

[cooleddie74]

The goal of all great art is to provoke a reaction, the more intense the reaction, the greater the art.

Depends. Ever seen a statue of Kim Il-Sung?

 

[Alan Roi]

Depends. Ever seen a statue of Kim Il-Sung?

Meh.

 

[cooleddie74]

[*Dear Art Critic applauds*]

 

[Alan Roi]

I interpreted it as such when I heard him say it.


This. I understand there would be an organization that would prevent rival entities from blowing us all to kingdom come with a superweapon, or something like that, but assassinations and genocide fall well outside of that.

I used to have starry eyes for the United States. Being born here, I was raised with the notion that we were a shining city on a hill, a beacon of freedom. It was implicit that the United States didn't do bad things to other countries, only good things that would free them from their chains.

Then I became a student of history, and learned about how we treated citizens in our own country. I read about the wars we fought and the actions we engaged in to claim our ideological victories, and the covert operations we engaged in to prop up puppet governments that crushed their own citizens in order to give ourselves full access to their resources.

These weren't things we had to do, but were instead actions we took to make ourselves bigger, more powerful, to put us in control of all we could grasp, and we still do it now, taking advantage of our planet, subverting the rights of millions, just so we can have a little more, just a little more. All the while, so many of our own citizens are utterly ignorant of what goes on beneath their noses so they can live what they believe is a normal life.

It was my fervent hope that humanity stepped beyond that. I fell in love with Star Trek because of Kirk's moral certitude that even though we could, even though it was in our power, we would not kill today. Then TNG happened, and my heart soared at the prospect of a Federation that had built upon that wisdom, that had grown in its emotional and intellectual maturity, that things were progressing.

Even with its darker tone, DS9 pushed the ideals of the Federation, showing our Starfleet compatriots as holding fast to those beliefs, and working to build harmony and peace between cultures, as hard a tightrope as that was to walk with the Cardassians and the Bajorans, but they still tried.

Then Section 31 happened and my spirits started to sink. Now we have them in DSC, and they're fully endorsed by the Federation, flashing their badges right out in plain sight. This episode also had Cornwell making excuses for them as she spoke of the virtues in nation building. So here we had another covert organization with a Banana War (yeah, sounds like a silly name but the actual events were atrocious) mentality, and it's all good, even the bad things.

I despise jingosim and nationalism, and here we have it in our little show about how humanity overcomes adversity, but even after World War 3, nationalism not only exists as a branch of a supposedly benevolent organization, but is pushed just as strongly despite the outcomes it has created in the past. There is no excuse for that. The United States is becoming more nationalistic every day, and so the last thing I want is to watch a show I loved for its optimistic view of humanity decide that nationalism is okay, and that engaging in nation building is an aspect of the Federation's Manifest Destiny.

For me, 6 out of 10 was being generous, and those 4 points relate directly to Section 31.

You have a show that lets you decide what you are watching is right or wrong. The fact that it isn't overtly telling you means it trusts you as a viewer to be able to tell the difference. Question is if you trust yourself to keep watching a show that isn't holding your hand.

 

[Longinus]

Thanks, I hated it.

This was like a collection of the worst Disco stuff, Mirror Georgiou, Tyvoq (who is staying, yugh) S31 (which inexplicably is now the official Federation Gestapo) and pure spore nonsense.

Culber is back, that's the only good thing about this episode, regardless of silly his resurrection was.

But this episode really has pretty much crushed the high hopes I had for this season, we will obviously be dealing with S31 stuff more and based on this episode's spore 'science' the whole resolution of that and the red angel thing will probably be just some mindbogglingly incomprehensible nonsense.

And of course because S31 is mentioned, there is much rejoicing from the section of the fans who think that having morals is lame and unrealistic and the Federation must have its own official and edgy death squad to correct mistakes of naive fools like Kirk and Picard... *sigh*

 

[Amaris]

You have a show that lets you decide what you are watching is right or wrong. The fact that it isn't overtly telling you means it trusts you as a viewer to be able to tell the difference. Question is if you trust yourself to keep watching a show that isn't holding your hand.

There are good people on both sides?

 

[Crazyewok]

I interpreted it as such when I heard him say it.


This. I understand there would be an organization that would prevent rival entities from blowing us all to kingdom come with a superweapon, or something like that, but assassinations and genocide fall well outside of that.

I used to have starry eyes for the United States. Being born here, I was raised with the notion that we were a shining city on a hill, a beacon of freedom. It was implicit that the United States didn't do bad things to other countries, only good things that would free them from their chains.

Then I became a student of history, and learned about how we treated citizens in our own country. I read about the wars we fought and the actions we engaged in to claim our ideological victories, and the covert operations we engaged in to prop up puppet governments that crushed their own citizens in order to give ourselves full access to their resources.

These weren't things we had to do, but were instead actions we took to make ourselves bigger, more powerful, to put us in control of all we could grasp, and we still do it now, taking advantage of our planet, subverting the rights of millions, just so we can have a little more, just a little more. All the while, so many of our own citizens are utterly ignorant of what goes on beneath their noses so they can live what they believe is a normal life.

It was my fervent hope that humanity stepped beyond that. I fell in love with Star Trek because of Kirk's moral certitude that even though we could, even though it was in our power, we would not kill today. Then TNG happened, and my heart soared at the prospect of a Federation that had built upon that wisdom, that had grown in its emotional and intellectual maturity, that things were progressing.

Even with its darker tone, DS9 pushed the ideals of the Federation, showing our Starfleet compatriots as holding fast to those beliefs, and working to build harmony and peace between cultures, as hard a tightrope as that was to walk with the Cardassians and the Bajorans, but they still tried.

Then Section 31 happened and my spirits started to sink. Now we have them in DSC, and they're fully endorsed by the Federation, flashing their badges right out in plain sight. This episode also had Cornwell making excuses for them as she spoke of the virtues in nation building. So here we had another covert organization with a Banana War (yeah, sounds like a silly name but the actual events were atrocious) mentality, and it's all good, even the bad things.

I despise jingosim and nationalism, and here we have it in our little show about how humanity overcomes adversity, but even after World War 3, nationalism not only exists as a branch of a supposedly benevolent organization, but is pushed just as strongly despite the outcomes it has created in the past. There is no excuse for that. The United States is becoming more nationalistic every day, and so the last thing I want is to watch a show I loved for its optimistic view of humanity decide that nationalism is okay, and that engaging in nation building is an aspect of the Federation's Manifest Destiny.

For me, 6 out of 10 was being generous, and those 4 points relate directly to Section 31.

This is why I love S31 as it makes people so angry

Nice to see the Emperor again but Section 31 being out in the open so blatantly goes against their DS9 appearances when they were the biggest secret in the Federation. Even if they're disavowed it seems unlikely such an organisation could ever be totally erased from public consciousness. The special effects on this show are amazing. Movie worthy.

My guess is it will do something bad even for S31 and it will result in S31 getting "officially" disbanded. Though in actual fact it just gets hidden and forgotten about over the next century.