Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
For me, this was the season's first miss. I couldn't get past all the nonsense to enjoy it.
I am happy Culber is back, and I loved the scene with him and Stamets in the Upside Down. It was a mistake to kill him off and while resurrection plots are a bit passe, I'll get over that to have that couple dynamic back.
The effects were cool, I liked Discovery sticking into the spore dimension (although it's very lucky that the other pod was close enough for the s31 ship to go there too, and not in, say, the Andromeda galaxy).
The rest of it just felt like such a load of rubbish built on technobabble. It really reminded me of that scene in Futurama. "Like a balloon! And something bad happens!"
The Upside Down stuff was just a massive Stranger Things rip off visually, and I don't get why the mycelial network would appear as a planet with a ground to walk on. I also don't get why, if the spore beings didn't know who Culber was why go to Tilly for help? If they did, why not go to Stamets? Why did they construct Culber a body out of spore matter when they are there to break stuff down? And why create him one only to turn attack it?
The whole thing just felt utterly contrived and really stretched my suspension of disbelief beyond breaking point.
The section 31 stuff was just ridiculous. They've gone from a super secret organisation that nobody is quite sure even exists to being just another branch of Starfleet who wear uniform, follow an Admiral's orders and run around doing... well, stuff that we've seen regular Starfleet do loads of times. What are they for in this story? Leather cool points?
Tilly and May - okay, I get why May might feel a connection, but Tilly thought she was just an hallucination until about 5 minutes before she was sucked out of her. Why would she feel any bond with her at all?
Is there anyone Pike doesn't have a previous connection with? And why is his engineer suddenly head of security?
Yay, the red angels are leaving tachyons. I'm glad the crew worked hard for that information instead of just having a surprise guest star blurt it out. And that implies a lot of really boring things that Trek has done many times before. Hopefully, the answer is none of those...
Directing fail you don't see too often nowadays, too - had to mirror/flip a shot of Tilly to get eyelines to match up (commbadge on the wrong side). That's basics guys, come on.
Comparing my impression of this one with that of the other episodes this season and the scores I gave those, this one is a 4.
I am happy Culber is back, and I loved the scene with him and Stamets in the Upside Down. It was a mistake to kill him off and while resurrection plots are a bit passe, I'll get over that to have that couple dynamic back.
The effects were cool, I liked Discovery sticking into the spore dimension (although it's very lucky that the other pod was close enough for the s31 ship to go there too, and not in, say, the Andromeda galaxy).
The rest of it just felt like such a load of rubbish built on technobabble. It really reminded me of that scene in Futurama. "Like a balloon! And something bad happens!"
The Upside Down stuff was just a massive Stranger Things rip off visually, and I don't get why the mycelial network would appear as a planet with a ground to walk on. I also don't get why, if the spore beings didn't know who Culber was why go to Tilly for help? If they did, why not go to Stamets? Why did they construct Culber a body out of spore matter when they are there to break stuff down? And why create him one only to turn attack it?
The whole thing just felt utterly contrived and really stretched my suspension of disbelief beyond breaking point.
The section 31 stuff was just ridiculous. They've gone from a super secret organisation that nobody is quite sure even exists to being just another branch of Starfleet who wear uniform, follow an Admiral's orders and run around doing... well, stuff that we've seen regular Starfleet do loads of times. What are they for in this story? Leather cool points?
Tilly and May - okay, I get why May might feel a connection, but Tilly thought she was just an hallucination until about 5 minutes before she was sucked out of her. Why would she feel any bond with her at all?
Is there anyone Pike doesn't have a previous connection with? And why is his engineer suddenly head of security?
Yay, the red angels are leaving tachyons. I'm glad the crew worked hard for that information instead of just having a surprise guest star blurt it out. And that implies a lot of really boring things that Trek has done many times before. Hopefully, the answer is none of those...
Directing fail you don't see too often nowadays, too - had to mirror/flip a shot of Tilly to get eyelines to match up (commbadge on the wrong side). That's basics guys, come on.
Comparing my impression of this one with that of the other episodes this season and the scores I gave those, this one is a 4.
Yeah, I noticed the flipped shot too. They're wearing badges on one side, guys. Can't get away with that. In an episode as surreal as this, I thought at first the flipped image might have some meaning, so it was especially jarring.
This ep struck me a one-watcher. I went along with it the first time, knowing they were playing fast and loose, but am probably best served not watching it again.
Overall, this felt like something we needed to get out of the way to get Culber back. I'm glad it's done and that it didn't drag on.
This ep struck me a one-watcher. I went along with it the first time, knowing they were playing fast and loose, but am probably best served not watching it again.
Overall, this felt like something we needed to get out of the way to get Culber back. I'm glad it's done and that it didn't drag on.
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I think they missed a chance to build this bond between Tilly (who somehow KEEPS her clothes on when coming back from the Mycelial Network as opposed to Culber, btw what did culber eat and drink there and since he was digitized and sent to the mycylial network is it canon now that his bark is much worse than his byte?)
i digress. That short trek episode Runaway might have been a better opportunity to start using May instead of the Queen of wherever she was, as an influence and friend to Tilly. Up until now it just seemed like she was an annoyance at best and threat at worst. Now they have pinky sworn.
i digress. That short trek episode Runaway might have been a better opportunity to start using May instead of the Queen of wherever she was, as an influence and friend to Tilly. Up until now it just seemed like she was an annoyance at best and threat at worst. Now they have pinky sworn.
In fairness, that does make some small amount of sense - Tilly was being transported, fully dressed, Culber was being recreated - his hair and skin are different too.
Gotta go through the thread, but before that, my first 7 for the season, but only for technical reasons that took me out of the story. The pacing was just really weird in this episode, but I loved the individual bits and pieces. But the back and forth between the bridge and the mission made the pacing problems too obvious. All the slow parts in the network where I wanted to get into what was going on, I still had all this distracting anxiety knowing like they were literally seconds away from disaster up top. And the direction made the episode feel like it was over but then there were several scenes at the end, along with a very drawn out monologue, and I like Michael's monologues!
Culber, Stamets, Tilly, and May made this episode. Everything between them all was absolutely touching. I accidentally spoiled myself knowing that Culber would return from that damn image they posted earlier this week; lol. I even said to myself when I saw Wilson Cruz on the credits, 'oh yeah he comes back this episode, nice.'
BUT THEY GOT ME; and so now I wish I hadn't spoiled myself, lol. The whole episode I was saying, 'that sucks they're going to make the Tardigrade like a *bad guy* and he's been suffering in the network this whole time. That really sucks!' and it wasn't until I heard the wailing I realized that it was Culber. I could have been completely surprised by his arrival given that I am quite forgetful, lol. But then again, I also thought Saru was actually going to die last week.
And I think I'm fully on board with the whole Section 31 thing now. I say that, despite being very 'omg ew Section 31 is not Star Trek and Gene's whatever,' I really like what they're doing with it in DSC because it's not what I was expecting. I think the way it's depicted makes a lot of sense, actually. Given we see its infancy in ENT and how the Federation has amassed such power in that time it in absolutely sensible that Section 31 would develop in tandem. I love that they even use the Romulan proto-cloak, that was awesome! And the first 100 years of founding the Federation, it isn't outrageous that the Federation would have sanctioned the division as their covert ops as founding an interstellar society would probably need them for safety. This all sounds terrible on paper for someone who grew up in the 24th century (so to speak), but 24th century humanity for the most part was about how far we could reach, but DSC is presenting the actual journey of choosing between the rights and wrongs that ground Starfleet in the future.
And given that I grew up on TNG first, I always thought of TOS as when 'they did things different back then,' because the 23rd century was very much a different time; captains went on away missions, you didn't spend your time ferrying diplomats, every border was a hostile one, etc. DSC adds to that, in that a shadow group that I know from the 24th century that can only operate in secret... was actually a government sanctioned group that operated out in the open. Obviously, this group's power and influence was diminished over time, to the point where they can only operate in hiding; I'm really interested in seeing how that happens.
I didn't like Section 31 in DS9 because it was way too evil and silly, and it kind of ruined the idyllic view of the Federation; badmirals are one thing, but a group of Starfleet Ninjas? It felt wrong. But it works in DSC for me, because it feels a lot more real and sensible. I didn't believe Section 31 could operate without anyone knowing, so DSC fixed that by making them a real organization. One that I know won't last in that form. They're gonna do something really shitty and the Federation is gonna be pissed, lol. Can't wait to see what.
Culber, Stamets, Tilly, and May made this episode. Everything between them all was absolutely touching. I accidentally spoiled myself knowing that Culber would return from that damn image they posted earlier this week; lol. I even said to myself when I saw Wilson Cruz on the credits, 'oh yeah he comes back this episode, nice.'
BUT THEY GOT ME; and so now I wish I hadn't spoiled myself, lol. The whole episode I was saying, 'that sucks they're going to make the Tardigrade like a *bad guy* and he's been suffering in the network this whole time. That really sucks!' and it wasn't until I heard the wailing I realized that it was Culber. I could have been completely surprised by his arrival given that I am quite forgetful, lol. But then again, I also thought Saru was actually going to die last week.
And I think I'm fully on board with the whole Section 31 thing now. I say that, despite being very 'omg ew Section 31 is not Star Trek and Gene's whatever,' I really like what they're doing with it in DSC because it's not what I was expecting. I think the way it's depicted makes a lot of sense, actually. Given we see its infancy in ENT and how the Federation has amassed such power in that time it in absolutely sensible that Section 31 would develop in tandem. I love that they even use the Romulan proto-cloak, that was awesome! And the first 100 years of founding the Federation, it isn't outrageous that the Federation would have sanctioned the division as their covert ops as founding an interstellar society would probably need them for safety. This all sounds terrible on paper for someone who grew up in the 24th century (so to speak), but 24th century humanity for the most part was about how far we could reach, but DSC is presenting the actual journey of choosing between the rights and wrongs that ground Starfleet in the future.
And given that I grew up on TNG first, I always thought of TOS as when 'they did things different back then,' because the 23rd century was very much a different time; captains went on away missions, you didn't spend your time ferrying diplomats, every border was a hostile one, etc. DSC adds to that, in that a shadow group that I know from the 24th century that can only operate in secret... was actually a government sanctioned group that operated out in the open. Obviously, this group's power and influence was diminished over time, to the point where they can only operate in hiding; I'm really interested in seeing how that happens.
I didn't like Section 31 in DS9 because it was way too evil and silly, and it kind of ruined the idyllic view of the Federation; badmirals are one thing, but a group of Starfleet Ninjas? It felt wrong. But it works in DSC for me, because it feels a lot more real and sensible. I didn't believe Section 31 could operate without anyone knowing, so DSC fixed that by making them a real organization. One that I know won't last in that form. They're gonna do something really shitty and the Federation is gonna be pissed, lol. Can't wait to see what.
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G
Gonzo
Guest
Just watched it, I will give my thoughts then go through the thread.
Great to watch and just so much better than the first season so far, the show as a whole just feels like it knows what it's trying to achieve now.
Pleased with how they brought back Tyler/Georgiou and Leland looks like a really interesting character which bodes well for the S31 series we should be getting.
Very happy to see Culber back and it looks like that will be it for the shroom drive for a while which is just as well really, now we can finally concentrate on the Spock and Red Angel plotlines.
Anson Mount continues to do a lot of the heavy lifting as Pike and his response to S31 and Leland's actions were just right, at this point I really do think a Pike/Enterprise show is inevitable, just a matter of properly introducing Spock and they are good to go.
Loved the S31 stuff as it is believable and so far has been done well, especially the following line from the Admiral to Pike that "Nation building is never pretty" which is another way of saying someone has to do the dirty jobs, it fits perfectly with the idea of S31 operating in the infinite shades of grey that have always separated the black from the white.
Wouldn't surprise me if a major part of the new S31 show is following Leland and his crew helping out but no one ever realising it, which would fit in well with what we saw of Sloan in DS9, playing by the rules is all well and good as long as your opponents do the same (we know they don't), I didn't have a problem with them having a cloak either as it stands to reason that a technologically advanced federation would have it but only use it for clandestine operations.
The only aspect I do find a little overdone at times is the monologue overkill by Burnham as we got quite a lot in this episode, don't get me wrong it has always been an aspect of Star Trek but in the past series they have known when to stop and it was generally used sparingly, it certainly doesn't affect my enjoyment or the score out of 10 I just find it a bit unecessary and sanctimonious at times which gets in the way of the message and reduces its impact at the times when it is warranted.
Even so the episode gets a well deserved 9/10.
Great to watch and just so much better than the first season so far, the show as a whole just feels like it knows what it's trying to achieve now.
Pleased with how they brought back Tyler/Georgiou and Leland looks like a really interesting character which bodes well for the S31 series we should be getting.
Very happy to see Culber back and it looks like that will be it for the shroom drive for a while which is just as well really, now we can finally concentrate on the Spock and Red Angel plotlines.
Anson Mount continues to do a lot of the heavy lifting as Pike and his response to S31 and Leland's actions were just right, at this point I really do think a Pike/Enterprise show is inevitable, just a matter of properly introducing Spock and they are good to go.
Loved the S31 stuff as it is believable and so far has been done well, especially the following line from the Admiral to Pike that "Nation building is never pretty" which is another way of saying someone has to do the dirty jobs, it fits perfectly with the idea of S31 operating in the infinite shades of grey that have always separated the black from the white.
Wouldn't surprise me if a major part of the new S31 show is following Leland and his crew helping out but no one ever realising it, which would fit in well with what we saw of Sloan in DS9, playing by the rules is all well and good as long as your opponents do the same (we know they don't), I didn't have a problem with them having a cloak either as it stands to reason that a technologically advanced federation would have it but only use it for clandestine operations.
The only aspect I do find a little overdone at times is the monologue overkill by Burnham as we got quite a lot in this episode, don't get me wrong it has always been an aspect of Star Trek but in the past series they have known when to stop and it was generally used sparingly, it certainly doesn't affect my enjoyment or the score out of 10 I just find it a bit unecessary and sanctimonious at times which gets in the way of the message and reduces its impact at the times when it is warranted.
Even so the episode gets a well deserved 9/10.
That isn't the case in Star Trek though - we play by our rules even when the the enemy don't or wouldn't do the same. We are who we say we are, even when it's inconvenient or detrimental to us. TOS established this very early in The Corbomite Manouvre. The sanctioning of s31 throws that completely under a bus.
Eurgh, first episode I started fast forwarding through. Watched this whole ep in about 15-20 minutes. Never been a "huge fan" of Discovery but at least it was more or less watchable, now I don't really care anymore. I don't connect or even particularly like any of the characters, Pike is ok but.. that's just it, ok shouldn't cut it. Everyone else in it the show just hasn't made me care about and/or simply bland.
Felt like with episode 2 it was actually getting back to "Star Trek" but 3 episodes later it's quickly returned to just a show I'm not really interested in
(Not bashing it, if people like it fair enough, just my 2 cents.)
Felt like with episode 2 it was actually getting back to "Star Trek" but 3 episodes later it's quickly returned to just a show I'm not really interested in
(Not bashing it, if people like it fair enough, just my 2 cents.)
G
Gonzo
Guest
It was all going to boil down to how it would be shown and handled and I think they got it just right.
Wouldn't surprise me if we see him sooner or later.
In would have given 9.5 or a 10 but I what to keep something back as we are only halfway through the season.
I'm all for that mentality and its one of the reasons why I love Star Trek. This is why I'd like to see how the Section 31 storyline is handled and how it ends, to see if that philosophy I love is earned through the mistakes the Federation makes with having Section 31 be sanctioned.
I would've gone with a 10 but the "I think we've found Spock! Oh, wait, no we didn't!" is starting to get more than a little silly. So partial points taken off for that and I'll stick with my Pi Squared rating, or the other name I have for it: 9-point-wacky-wacky.
I could only give this episode a "6." A somewhat deceiving number as, for the most part, I liked it. What caused me to knock a couple points off is that Discovery maybe trending towards a "death means nothing" style of melodrama.
I mean between alternate universes doubles, fake deaths and deus ex machina trickery it is too much too close together. Don't get me wrong, Wilson Cruz is a wonderful actor and his character's, Dr. Hugh Culber, romance with Stamets was beautifully done, however, his character was murdered (and I did shed a tear). This resurrection was an ill conceived stretch that strains the credulity of the series. It becomes a sort of "Boy Who Cried Wolf" affair in that they are stripping away the dramatic tension of mortality.
I also think they are teasing Spock's appearance too much. Do it already!
I enjoyed the Captain Pike-S31 interactions as well as the Tilly and May's pinky swear.
I mean between alternate universes doubles, fake deaths and deus ex machina trickery it is too much too close together. Don't get me wrong, Wilson Cruz is a wonderful actor and his character's, Dr. Hugh Culber, romance with Stamets was beautifully done, however, his character was murdered (and I did shed a tear). This resurrection was an ill conceived stretch that strains the credulity of the series. It becomes a sort of "Boy Who Cried Wolf" affair in that they are stripping away the dramatic tension of mortality.
I also think they are teasing Spock's appearance too much. Do it already!
I enjoyed the Captain Pike-S31 interactions as well as the Tilly and May's pinky swear.
I mean, I think one of the fundamental problems with this episode is it seems to me that the entirety of it was more or less put together not because someone had a great story idea, but because there were a series of things they wanted to accomplish (resurrect Culber, get Tyler back on Discovery, introduce Section 31 to the Discovery crew, etc) and this was the best possible way the showrunners could think to do it.
G
Gonzo
Guest
Yeah the monologues are getting a bit much at times.
I didnt mind the season opener. And since we don't get a "Captain's Log" opening, that kind of thing is ok at the intro once in awhile, but i really do not like the monologue "today we learned" kind of summary at the end.
I just wish they weren't so damn long, lol. And I kinda feel like if she just said, "Personal Log," at the beginning, people would hate them a teensy bit less. But then again, I could listen to SMG's voice read the dictionary and be content.
G
Gonzo
Guest
Many are hoping that S31 are going to do something terrible and be somehow cast out but it's just wishful thinking on their part.
For me all of the S31 plotlines we have seen over the different Star Trek series just adds to the believability of the Federation as a whole and the Admirals comments in this episode only reinforce that.
S31 isn't evil and never was, it's just that S31 is not talked about by those who know about them which is pretty standard operating procedure for a clandestine organisation, the fact they get a black insignia shows that they are indeed an official part of the Federation and nothing is going to change that.
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