Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

Yeah

 

The B-52 was introduced in the 1950s. The USAF plans to use it into the 2050s. The age is not material.

 

The exception that proves the rule. They’re not throwing Spitfires up against F-35’s. Age is absolutely material.

 

The point of Riker's problem wasn't that he wanted to wait on implementing the shift change until he could confer with the captain. (As was his excuse) It's that he waited until the order should already have taken place, & didn't do it, because he thought his intended conference with the captain took precedence over the order given. He is just wrong, which is why when he gets dressed down about it at the ceremony, Picard has not one thing to say about it, because there is absolutely nothing wrong with the captain expecting that his order should have been followed.

Honestly, the fact that Riker actually responds to Jellico's question "So you have not changed the watch rotation?" by looking at Picard?!?! for such a length of time that it actually becomes an awkward moment, where Picard has to look away, is straight up disrespectful to the man you are answering to. Plus, Jellico hardly barks out his command after that. He calmly reorders it so that there'd be no mistaking the intention to have it be done, to which Riker throws him back one of the dirtiest looks I've ever seen him give a superior officer, just for having been told what to do, when being told what to do is literally what being a subordinate is.

Y'all need to rewatch that scene without the rose colored glasses. Riker is writing that man off, in just about every way a person can. He already thinks he shouldn't have been given command. He already thinks any changes are unwarranted, even though he's not briefed on the mission as well, & he already thinks his weight onboard should be worth as much as the man's. It's pretty obvious imho

We don't know any of that. We do know that everything Jellico orders is reasonable according to the ship's entirely dispassionate 3rd officer, even if it is wholly inconvenient, which it probably should be, given the time critical nature of the crisis. The guy brought into to do a specific mission wants things a certain way for it. No one is saying why he shouldn't be asking for it. They're just saying it's hard for them, that he is asking it. So what? Would you rather he not have what he expects & the result is mission failure & war? He's in command, not the people who feel unhappy about their lot in life

 

Age sometimes doesn’t matter. There have been many designs that have put live other and are still useful. Some real world examples are the B-52 and the dc-3. Both have been around for at least 50 years. And the b-52 is still in military use and will be alot longer. The excelsior still seems like a good ship. Also Jellico is not my favorite captain. In fact I don’t even like him. I do however respect him as a captain. And by the way jellico seem to run the enterprise like a military officer. He changes the science stations to damage control and weapons status, he put more people in security and had the enterprise have more bypasses just in case of damage. He had troi put on a standard uniform (which I think we can all agree to was the right cause) and just seem more formal. Your wishful thinking is just that. I am not trying to undermine the flagship of starfleet but it is fact that the enterprise D was never in any way and the E was never seen in any serious fight during the dominion war. One last thing like it or not Riker is arrogance and so is jellico. (I mean I like Riker, more than picard, and I can see he is a little arrogant) I think we can both agree to that and the fact that their tensions was both their fault. All Riker would have to do was follow the orders and if he had a problem following under protest and note it in his log. as one person in the thread put it “Actually, Riker had a headstart. His pissy attitude began with Nechayev, before meeting Jellico.” And I think we can both agree they both they should have handled there differences better. Although at the end jellico seem to be a bit more friendlier. I mean he did make a connection with Geordi over them both being pilots. So in the end if he would have gotten to know them better and give them some more time him and the cre would have gotten along better. But then again that would be a more boring episode.

 

Thank you, we must be on the same wavelength. I’m tired of every one completely blaming jellico.

The point is that the excelsior is also a exception to the rule. Unlike the constitution it lasted a lot longer.

 

The point I stated above is that the only reason they used the Excelsior, Miranda, K’t’inga, et al is budgetary.

The only reason we didn’t see the Constitution is the same as we didn’t their top of the line ship of the line Sovereign — the machinations of studio execs.

Those old ships were half as fast with inferior weapons and other techs yet they always used the same unchanged models as though magically refit. If they had unlimited budget, you wouldn’t see starships before the era they’re in (more realistic for the trillion+ UFP) or at the very least highly altered ones (for the fun of it) showing the updated techs.

 

Well, we did see an altered Excelsior in "Paradise Lost"...

 

Well you know what the in universe reason is because they are good reliable designs and stayed in service for a long time. And I’m sure others would agree

 

I like the ship a lot. Here are more from the era (check out page 34!).

I imagine that might be standard on a war footing. It's the same Starfleet in different modes.

She should have always been in one. She started out in one in "Encounter at Farpoint," though they couldn't commit to put her in a standard one. Did anyone else where that thing? It's purely a matter of Hollywood & Sex -- ask Kira, Seven, and T'Pol, among others.

It's explicitly stated to be the flagship. The only reason they didn't fight in INS was because of the tone of the movie and the execs not wanting to nick DS9's main storyline. You're taking a stance I have no interest in discussing.

I think whatever else the writers intended, the Ent crew didn't come off looking good. It reminded me of Troi in "Disaster" for bad presentation of a character.

One that proves my point. It was indistinguishable from an Excelsior from 70 years prior, yet magically was an even match for the anti-Borg super-weapon Defiant. None of the old ships fighting in the Dominion War should look as they did if still in service. Kirk's Enterprise went through at least two refits looking differently in "The Cage," TOS, and TMP. 10 years earlier it looked like this. If any of the Constitution Classes were still around in the 24th century, they should have been refitted still. It's purely a matter of television production budget.

 

I never stated it wasn’t the flagship of starfleet.
Also I’m fine with the old ships looking the way they did back when they were new. The look good. I’m a firm believer in “if it ain’t broken, then don’t fix it”. Although the Miranda class did go through a refit that lighted up there nacelle. And there phasers beam looks more like them one that “modern” ships use. That’s good enough for me. The constitution refit was more of a rebuild. You don’t need a rebuild kind of refit all the time. Also refits don’t always change the outward appearance of a ship, in fiction and real life.
And the producers were pretty stupid in not letting the enterprise fight in the dominion war during a movie. Would have been great to see them in wartime.

Yes but it has a side effect of bridging the gap between the tos movie starfleet and the 24th century starfleet by using common ships. And plus since I love both kind of ships (23 and 24 century) I really don’t care if the budget caused them not be able to create new ships that may not be as Aesthetically pleasing as the old. ( (Steam runner not so pretty)
On a unrelated note I hope one day someone makes detailed deck plans for the excelsior like they did for the Miranda, constitution, nx, defiant, bop, k’tinga, nova,akira, steamrunner, and sovereign. And there is a saber class deck plan created by a novice. (It’s not the same quality as the others)

 

One thing I have wondered is how long Jellico has been a captain. We know Picard was one for about 30 years before he took command of the Enterprise-D.

Picard obviously has had a LOT of time to be familiar with that position and be the most effective at it.

We don't know if Jellico has been a captain for a short time or for decades. I think that might play a factor in his style of command.

 

Once they could film Nebulae and Galaxies, the budgetary issue would go away. It was a choice to create new footage around an Excelsior in Paradise Lost when another model could be used . The argument is a red herring.

 

I wouldn't use Data as a reference for which of Jellico's orders are reasonable. The guy will push Crusher into the ocean and expected it to be funny, he has little grasp on the human crews reaction to the situation...

 

Are you sure Crusher wasn't the problem? Her bellyaching began when training with Picard, so in her case, Jellico was not the issue. (Same with Worf.)

 

But other than that he is a spot on Officer and will know if the order will endanger the crew. And he had no problems with jellico’s orders.

 

How reliable is Data really when it comes to the state of the crew though? He tells Jellico what is possible but it's questionable how much of a read he has on the crew's morale. Troi on the other hand was already concerned, and Geordi as well. And Geordi is usually the one who has to clue Data in on how to be more human..

 

Well, he saw similarly pissy behavior in LCDR Chris Hobson that Riker et al displayed, and dealt with it appropriately.

 

I wouldn't use an instance of failing to understand juvenile humor as comparable to being clueless about what constitutes reasonable interaction with subordinates. Every instance of Data assuming command results in him performing exceptionally, & every putz who'd ever said he didn't have sufficient capacity to be in charge of, or responsible for lives was proven wrong, spectacularly.

He's 3rd in command. Not a chump. His testimony is valid. Don't be Hobson, man. Don't be that guy. Besides, even I thought it was effing hilarious that he dumped Bev in the drink, & I bet you when she wasn't around... all of them privately chuckled about it too

But if you disagree, consider the other factor in supporting the idea that so long as the captain is not endangering lives, he's in the right ordering things to be however he wants... that factor being, where's the negative impact? I don't remember hearing a single thing about any of the orders he gave backfiring, because he was wrong to order it

All I remember is that everybody thought it sucked, & I'm sure it did, but who said preventing wars... or starting them, was gonna be a tiptoe through the tulips? Willy thinks everybody is wound tight enough that there's no JOY in anything?

That's the gripe? He doesn't got you feeling enough joy? Awwwww Wait til you're under fire, Bubba. I recall when your side piece got gobbled up by the Crystal Monster, you were all kinds of fire & brimstone. Hell, let a junior officer bring a suggestion to Picard without running it by you, & you rain down on them like Patton, even if that guy is... another YOU

Jellico may suck to serve under that week, sure, but he's got pretty good reasons. It's a shit mission from top to bottom, but what's Riker's excuse for his ongoing superiority complex? Nobody polished his pips?

 

Totally agree. I wish I could explain it like that. I’m not very good with words