USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

[Groppler Zorn]

Even then, I think that would have been easier to rationalize, because it follows the series rather than occurring in the middle of a period we’ve already seen.

Sort of like how we aren’t told in IV where the A came from — fans just filled it in.

My reaction: Hmm, upgrades. And moved on.

Is it the time frame of DSC that’s causing some of the issues here then?

Like if DSC had taken place *just* after the end of TOS and the big E had shown up looking like it does, I think I probably would have shrugged and thought it was a halfway stage between the show and the TMP refit.

I mean, I’m still ok with the discoprise simply being a refit - I just think it warrants an explanation due to *when* DSC is taking place relative to the rest of the timeline.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Is it the time frame of DSC that’s causing some of the issues here then?

Like if DSC had taken place *just* after the end of TOS and the big E had shown up looking like it does, I think I probably would have shrugged and thought it was a halfway stage between the show and the TMP refit.

I mean, I’m still ok with the discoprise simply being a refit - I just think it warrants an explanation due to *when* DSC is taking place relative to the rest of the timeline.

Nope, it's the fact they changed stuff.
If they had introduced the Discoprise between TOS and TMP, people still would complain.

 

[BillJ]

Nope, it's the fact they changed stuff.

Well, no. It's the fact they changed stuff and are trying to sell it as something it really can never be.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Nope, it's the fact they changed stuff.
If they had introduced the Discoprise between TOS and TMP, people still would complain.

I hope that’s not true - but I fear that there may be more truth in it than I’d like to admit.

Star Trek is always changing stuff though - the Klingons are a case in point.

It wasn’t an issue until they time travelled to that period. I thought the Enterprise solution was great all things considered.

I suppose we might have seen complaints that changes between TOS and TMP may not have been necessary - if they had set DSC after TOS those complaints may have been mitigated by the fact that it followed what we’d already seen.

 

[Belz...]

Well, no. It's the fact they changed stuff and are trying to sell it as something it really can never be.

Ah, there's the unwillingness to accept the concept of retroactive changes again.

The changes can be anything they want, since retroactive change is something they can do. You don't have to like it, just know and accept that they can do this. DSC being in Prime doesn't mean it'll be immune to the sort of continuity issues that have always plagued Trek.

 

[BillJ]

The changes can be anything they want, since retroactive change is something they can do. You don't have to like it, just know and accept that they can do this. DSC being in Prime doesn't mean it'll be immune to the sort of continuity issues that have always plagued Trek.

Who exactly has said they can't do this? They can make the Abramsverse movies "Prime" tomorrow. It doesn't mean I abandon what my brain tells me about what they are.

And anyone who has read my posts know my issues are deeper than names and dates on a calendar.

 

[fireproof78]

Nope, it's the fact they changed stuff.
If they had introduced the Discoprise between TOS and TMP, people still would complain.

This, largely, has been my experience with some exceptions.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, no. It's the fact they changed stuff and are trying to sell it as something it really can never be.

Is this the "Prime" thing again? It's their product. They get to sell it how ever they want ( with in the bounds of the law) "New and improved". "Now with more vitamins". "Kung-Fu action grip". No idea why it being called "Prime" is such a sticking point.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Who exactly has said they can't do this? They can make the Abramsverse movies "Prime" tomorrow. It doesn't mean I abandon what my brain tells me about what they are.

And anyone who has read my posts know my issues are deeper than names and dates on a calendar.

Do you think this gets to the root of the issue with these kinds of changes?

I mean the inherent illogic of a retroactive continuity change? I find it requires almost a suspension of disbelief when a retcon happens.

Again, I think the degree of the change can have an impact on how easy it is to accept.

Seeing the Borg in a time before “Q Who” but they look like they do in “First contact”? That’s annoying - but we never saw the whole collective in “Q Who”, BoBW, “I Borg” and “descent”, so maybe some Borg looked one way and some looked another.

The same thing could be said of the Klingons - until they explicitly addressed the issue.

The Enterprise is akin to the latter change rather than the former in my opinion here. The inherent lack of logic in changing a thing - particularly an iconic thing whose appearance has been respected in subsequent depictions - seems to be at the core of the issues surrounding this particular change in my opinion.

 

[BillJ]

Is this the "Prime" thing again? It's their product. They get to sell it how ever they want ( with in the bounds of the law) "New and improved". "Now with more vitamins". "Kung-Fu action grip". No idea why it being called "Prime" is such a sticking point.

It isn't a sticking point in watching the show, the show fails for me on its own merits (or lack thereof). CBS can sell the show anyway it chooses, and I've never said otherwise.

It would be like someone writing a Sherlock Holmes book in 2018 that takes place between two others from the 1890's, and adding things never intended by the author and then telling you have to interpret this as the way the Holmes universe always was. You can't interpret it as anything else or enjoy it in its own right.

There are many fans who are desperate to shoot down any discussion that interprets the material as anything other than "Prime". Like the show has no merit if everyone doesn't recognize it as such.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It would be like someone writing a Sherlock Holmes book in 2018 that takes place between two others from the 1890's, and adding things never intended by the author and then telling you have to interpret this as the way the Holmes universe always was. You can't interpret it as anything else or enjoy it in its own right.

No, it's not the same because Holmes was the product of one man, while Star Trek is and always has been a "group effort". Adding things into the "gaps" is how it was designed to work. And that means changing and updating things too. Star Trek.was designed to do that as well. It's suppose to evolve and change. And that change and evolution can happen within the great timeline/universe/canon/whatever.

There are many fans who are desperate to shoot down any discussion that interprets the material as anything other than "Prime". Like the show has no merit if everyone doesn't recognize it as such.

It a bit too "personal canon" for my taste. Other than that I don't care if it's discussed. Though,I can see how others might be annoyed by the constant beating of the "Not Prime" drum.

 

[BillJ]

Not it's not the same because Holmes was the product of one man, while Star Trek is and always has been a "group effort".

But the group that created TOS is gone. At that point, for me, if you want to mess with it, you do a reboot. You don't overwrite the wishes of the people who are no longer with us and thus have no input.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But the group that created TOS is gone. At that point, for me, if you want to mess with it, you do a reboot. You don't overwrite the wishes of the people who are no longer with us and thus have no input.

I don't think the people in charge of TOS then would have that attitude, because they were professionals and don't have the fannish objections to change fans do. If fact there may be things in DISCO (and Kelvin, DS9, VOY and ENT) that they would look at and think "ooh, I wish I had thought of that!".

 

[Belz...]

Who exactly has said they can't do this?

You. Right here:

They can make the Abramsverse movies "Prime" tomorrow. It doesn't mean I abandon what my brain tells me about what they are.

You're basically saying that you will ignore canon because it doesn't suit you. It has nothing to do with you being smart. It's just you being stubborn.

And anyone who has read my posts know my issues are deeper than names and dates on a calendar.

It's hard to take it seriously when someone talks about "deeper" issues regarding a work of fiction.

 

[Belz...]

No idea why it being called "Prime" is such a sticking point.

Well, it's a sticking point because some people truly believe that they have a special understanding of what's "true" Star Trek (or true X, if we're talking about other franchises or, in fact, anything else). If a movie or episode or series does not conform to that conception of the franchise, then it is the show that's wrong, not them.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think the people in charge of TOS then would have that attitude, because they were professionals and don't have the fannish objections to change fans do. If fact there may be things in DISCO (and Kelvin, DS9, VOY and ENT) that they would look at and think "ooh, I wish I had thought of that!".

Very much so. Somewhere, and some day I will find the quote, but even Roddenberry acknowledged that someday someone would come along and present their own vision of Star Trek and he encouraged it.

 

[TrickyDickie]

Holmes was the product of one man

Not for long:

"Sherlock Holmes fanfiction serves as a benchmark for the potential of the genre. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s four novels and 56 short stories featuring the detective Holmes and his companion-biographer Dr. John Watson were published between 1887 and 1927. They have provoked fervent participatory behavior in fans since their publication. The unusually playful works operate under the conceit that Holmes and Watson were historical figures, and Doyle merely their literary agent. Doyle’s stories inspired fanfiction spinoffs as early as 1893, by no less distinguished a fan than Doyle’s friend and the creator of Peter Pan, J.M. Barrie, who wrote the SH pastiche “The Adventure of the Two Collaborators” as a present for Doyle. In response to William Gillette’s 1899 stage adaptation of SH, Doyle simply said, “You may marry him or murder him or do whatever you like with him.” Monsignor Roland Knox continued the tradition in the influential paper “Studies in the Literature of Sherlock Holmes” (1911), in which he entreats fellow Sherlockians to uncover the hidden truths of the world Doyle created. Doyle, in correspondence, gave his blessing to this undertaking, suggesting that those fan-critics had as much right to define Holmes’ fictional universe as he did. For Doyle, being the author was not synonymous with being an authority."

http://theamericanreader.com/elementary-my-dear-watson-the-mystery-of-fanfiction/

 

[Tuskin38]

Very much so. Somewhere, and some day I will find the quote, but even Roddenberry acknowledged that someday someone would come along and present their own vision of Star Trek and he encouraged it.

You can see that starting with TMP.
The TOS design wasn’t going to hold up on the big screen, that’s why they redesigned her, and even before that, Phase II had a different design. Albeit still with simple details like the original.

If there were a few more years between TOS and TMP, the phase II design would make a great inbetween refit.

 

[Jadeb]

You can see that starting with TMP.
The TOS design wasn’t going to hold up on the big screen, that’s why they redesigned her, and even before that, Phase II had a different design. Albeit still with simple details like the original.

That was also when there was no way the TOS uniforms could ever possibly work on the big screen. The idea was laughable.

Funny how things change with time.

 

[TrickyDickie]

I thought this was quite well done:

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