Is Toxic "Star Wars" Fandom Imploding?

[jaime]

Everything you're saying to me simply sounds more like a problem within the fanbase than the films, people not wanting even the slightest variance from the what they expect and feel safe with. I don't want to feel I'm watching something where there's no creative freedom, where the plot is defined by a formula and anyone one of us could sketch it out in advance because that formula is so well known and goes so unchallenged.

I know I'm harping on the point but if we are applying the HJ to Luke he's already completed it, it can't define him so what is supposed to happen next? If we are to follow the conventions established in the world building that has gone before one side gains temporary ascendency before falling, typically due to some internal strife or failing amongst it's most prominent figures. That cycle works in both directions, The Empire fell due to Vader's questioning of Palpatine and guilt at his own actions, the Republic before it due to the hubris and arrogance of the Jedi Order and their failure to predict Anakin's fall, prior to that we know of Plagueis reaching previously unknown heights within the Sith teachings, much as Yoda later did with the Jedi. He was killed by his own pupil. The SW universe is on the large scale defined by the constant flux between two polar extremes and the shift from one is almost always internal. Luke as seen in TLJ is just the latest iteration of that.

The problem is people have grown attached to him above all other characters, he has come to define the idea of the ultimate hero of the setting, the final victory of light because that's how he was presented to us in the OT. Everything else has stemmed from that and comes secondary in the minds of much of the fanbase.

The world doesn't neatly wrap up adventures though, nor does SW. Life goes on and it does so without the benefit of a compass defining the route. Therein lies the problem, the story had to move on beyond the events of ROTJ and that means seeing what happens after the glorious victory, what comes next and how reality never meets the hopes and expectations of those who fight for those ideals. Luke being disillusioned and living in self imposed exile is well within the bounds of valid story telling, but that doesn't fit with the image people have of the happy ending he came to represent.

It’s not life. It’s fantasy. And Luke’s little section of it in particular is one that found its home with kids. Star Wars, essentially, is family viewing, shifts mountains of toys. Five year olds and thereabouts. It needs realism in its mainline stories about as much as the Godfather needs a few song and dance numbers a la Busby. Luke absolutely is that shining light.
Maybe it is safe, a little, but it’s certainly not a hinder on creativity for any creator worthy of the title.
The problem today is the nihilism turning up in many things. We call it post modern, we call it deconstruction, we throw all these nice criticisms at it from our media savvy adult world. But when we were kids, the heroes won, the baddies were defeated, good triumphed over evil. Where do today’s kids get that? Cos it won’t be in Star Wars where we got it. It’s not in Star Trek, cos that ain’t kid friendly anymore and it takes fifteen episodes of non kid friendly stuff to get there. Doctor Who? Maybe. Except we had a basically suicidal Doctor refusing to regenerate on Christmas Day while he visited by everyone he knew...and who were all dead.
When does the hero, the one the kids whoosh around pretending to be, get to live and be happy?
Because sod real life, I get real life in my real life, I want kids to aspire to be good, and live, and be happy...we don’t need to teach little boys and little girls that it’s all about dying for cause, before we teach them to live for a good one first.
That’s the first rule of these things: good triumphs over evil, the dragons can be fought and beaten.
It’s one we deconstruct into ‘there are no dragons, justa different point of view’ because we are such clever adults now.
That’s why Luke needed to stay a hero, though I do not think TLJ is quite the mess some people think, nor is it the glorious ‘anyone can be the hero’ others think...not least because who wants that job? You get to die alone with that job...it’s happened to every last one in the story now.
You can absolutely have a character be the obi wan, absolutely turn the wheel, but any creator worthy of the title knows how to play the game. Lucasfilm needs to fin one...even Rebels got dark, and lost the kid fans. It’s irresponsible to promise a story of hope, and give one with none.
People took Clerks little Empire discussion a little too much to heart.
Life is not a series of down endings.

 

[fireproof78]

First the new sequels stripped the family, then the peace, the. The heroes lives.

Which is very common in mythology.

 

[jaime]

Which is very common in mythology.

So is rape, incest, and the treatment of women and children as chattel. There’s not much call for more of that in Star Wars is there? Not more than there already is anyway xD

 

[fireproof78]

So is rape, incest, and the treatment of women and children as chattel. There’s not much call for more of that in Star Wars is there? Not more than there already is anyway xD

The larger point being that Star Wars is not bound by one particular mythological convention or framework. It established its own world and is exploring those by delving more in to the characters themselves, and their perspectives on life, rather than huge expansive themes and battles.

Luke fits in to that world just fine. There is no requirement for him to fit in to the preconceived molds of audience expectations. Otherwise, ESB would not be regarded so well as it is now.

 

[Spot261]

So is rape, incest, and the treatment of women and children as chattel. There’s not much call for more of that in Star Wars is there? Not more than there already is anyway xD

Well, yes there is, along with genocide, infanticide, slavery and numerous other atrocities. I can't help but wonder how you view TESB or ROTS in terms of your narrative where the heroes always win and save the day? How did you view Anakin, or Obi Wan, or Yoda, or Mace Windu, all of whom had their turn at represented that shining light but failed? You
brought up Campbell, narrative conventions and literary archetypes, it seems a strange tack to take now that SW is a kids movie and thus shouldn't be intelectualised

I can't help but think you are missing the point that Luke is romanticised not only beyond all reasonable expectation but also beyond the standards established within the franchise, he follows a very well trodden path of ascension and personal failure with no clear indicator why he should be any different. Unlike some he did at least find some measure of redemption, if heroics are required for that. After all, it's worth reminding you he did in fact save the day in TLJ....with the single most heroic act we've seen thus far

 

[jaime]

Well, yes there is, along with genocide, infanticide, slavery and numerous other atrocities. I can't help but wonder how you view TESB or ROTS in terms of your narrative where the heroes always win and save the day? How did you view Anakin, or Obi Wan, or Yoda, or Mace Windu, all of whom had their turn at represented that shining light but failed? You
brought up Campbell, narrative conventions and literary archetypes, it seems a strange tack to take now that SW is a kids movie and thus shouldn't be intelectualised

I can't help but think you are missing the point that Luke is romanticised not only beyond all reasonable expectation but also beyond the standards established within the franchise, he follows a very well trodden path of ascension and personal failure with no clear indicator why he should be any different. Unlike some he did at least find some measure of redemption, if heroics are required for that. After all, it's worth reminding you he did in fact save the day in TLJ....with the single most heroic act we've seen thus far

It is both built from myth and is a kids movie at the same time. It’s sort of it’s thing. Same way we used to get stuff like clash of the titans, or kid-friendly versions of the Iliad or Oddysey told at bedtime. It’s perfectly plausible.

Empire is a middle act, we knew that at the time..it being a down ending doesn’t matter, because it’s blatantly a massive open ending with a cliff hanger. We knew how those worked, because so many things were still serial in that old sense back then. Batman. Doctor Who. Etc etc. Arguably it helped teach delayed gratification in a way that one and done episodes don’t, and long form serial stories really don’t either.
The other heroes? There’s George using the fact the prequels are prequels in his favour. Only in ROTS does he take the hero out of the story...and only one of them, because Obi Wan in a small way still wins the day. The battle, but not the war. Because we can go and get closure by watching, if we haven’t already, the final defeat of the emperor, and the redemption of Anakin, in the OT. Luke is still the hero, but for most of the PT it’s Anakin and Obi Wan Who are. Because they are prequels, ROTS only needs the heroics of living to fight another day for Obi Wan, as tragic as that ending is for him. We needed to wait after Empire, no one needed to wait after ROTS.
On the other hand, ROTS is where Lucas got tired of criticisms from ‘adults’ and just catered to their whims with Anakins fall. He just wanted done with it by then I think. Even AOTC pulls its punches a fair bit...sand people not ‘people people’ and the bloodless Fett death...only villains die in SW until ROTS, or at the very least alien monsters.
Star Wars chased the kid demographic from the start...Lucas had merchandising rights. You don’t sell many toys off the back of gorefests or nihilistic introspection and decapitation. Well. You didn’t in the seventies. Things changed. Clive Barker has an action figure range in the nineties.

I don’t think TLJ lost the plot as much as some think, it’s certainly more nuanced than the impression I got from the discussion before I saw it. Having seen it though, I saw where it dropped the ball, and it’s not what it’s staunch defenders say either. I still think the new characters, Rey in particular, would have been better served by one of those ‘safe’ stories. Because sometimes, those thousand year archetypes have had staying power for a reason, and Rey the ‘lost princess’ is just a better story in tradition.

But this is the century than managed to grimdark fucking Anne of Green Gables. So it can screw off. XD
Poor Anne.

 

[jaime]

The larger point being that Star Wars is not bound by one particular mythological convention or framework. It established its own world and is exploring those by delving more in to the characters themselves, and their perspectives on life, rather than huge expansive themes and battles.

Luke fits in to that world just fine. There is no requirement for him to fit in to the preconceived molds of audience expectations. Otherwise, ESB would not be regarded so well as it is now.

We never went to Star Wars for introspective character work. We went for expansive themes and battles. It’s kind of in the title.
It’s not French Arthouse ‘Trois Coleurs Skywalker’ or ‘Trent’s-sept degrees dans la Tatooine’.
That’s what happens when we sell action figures to thirty year olds who never grew up instead of the kids who should be playing with them. Lê sigh.

 

[JD]

Pretty much every story I've ever experienced that either continues on after the apparent happy ending, or picks up after another's has turned that happy ending to shit.
Into the Woods is a perfect example,

Spoiler: Into the Woods

The first act ends with all the fairy tale characters getting their traditional happy ever afters, only for everything to go to hell in act two.

 

[JD]

Clive Barker has an action figure range in the nineties.

I think at this point as many adult properties as kid properties have actions figures these days. Even Game of Thrones has a fairly extensive line of collectables that they sell at Target.

 

[Spot261]

It is both built from myth and is a kids movie at the same time. It’s sort of it’s thing. Same way we used to get stuff like clash of the titans, or kid-friendly versions of the Iliad or Oddysey told at bedtime. It’s perfectly plausible.

Which cuts both ways, if you want to apply a double standard you can't expect it to only work on your terms. If you want to apply that level of literary analysis you're opening the door to people responding in terms which respect that level of depth. To then dismiss said counter arguments in terms which decry the franchise as being beneath creativity outside the conventions is to tacitly dismiss your own earlier references to the importance of the very archetypes I've suggested TLJ subverts.

No, in many ways SW isn't a profound piece of art, you're right, but to expect it to be so constricted by those conventions that any attempt to move beyond them is actually a criticism is effectively to counter the validity of your own observations about those archetypes applying. Why mention them at all if you aren't open to the possibility of their ever not applying anyway?

Empire is a middle act, we knew that at the time..it being a down ending doesn’t matter, because it’s blatantly a massive open ending with a cliff hanger. We knew how those worked, because so many things were still serial in that old sense back then. Batman. Doctor Who. Etc etc. Arguably it helped teach delayed gratification in a way that one and done episodes don’t, and long form serial stories really don’t either.

TLJ is also a middle act don't forget, we don;t yet know where Episode IX will take us.

The other heroes? There’s George using the fact the prequels are prequels in his favour. Only in ROTS does he take the hero out of the story...and only one of them, because Obi Wan in a small way still wins the day. The battle, but not the war. Because we can go and get closure by watching, if we haven’t already, the final defeat of the emperor, and the redemption of Anakin, in the OT. Luke is still the hero, but for most of the PT it’s Anakin and Obi Wan Who are. Because they are prequels, ROTS only needs the heroics of living to fight another day for Obi Wan, as tragic as that ending is for him. We needed to wait after Empire, no one needed to wait after ROTS.

The other heroes represent an ongoing pattern of ascension and fall, glory and folly, which only we see Luke as being outside of, precisely because of the conventions discussed and the framing of the story onscreen. In universe he's no fundamentally different and there's no a priori reason his prominence should preclude him from following narratives other than that which we expect or desire. After all, if we can predict everything in advance, why bother watching the film at all? Equally, is he aware that he represents all our hopes and childhood ambitions? Does he factor that sort of fourth wall breaking into his decision making?

You keep shifting the goal posts, talking about the needs of the narrative and each characters place within the larger arc, but going on to talk about how the childish nature of the franchise invalidate arguments on that level when a counter is offered.

 

[jaime]

Which cuts both ways, if you want to apply a double standard you can't expect it to only work on your terms. If you want to apply that level of literary analysis you're opening the door to people responding in terms which respect that level of depth. To then dismiss said counter arguments in terms which decry the franchise as being beneath creativity outside the conventions is to tacitly dismiss your own earlier references to the importance of the very archetypes I've suggested TLJ subverts.

No, in many ways SW isn't a profound piece of art, you're right, but to expect it to be so constricted by those conventions that any attempt to move beyond them is actually a criticism is effectively to counter the validity of your own observations about those archetypes applying. Why mention them at all if you aren't open to the possibility of their ever not applying anyway?



TLJ is also a middle act don't forget, we don;t yet know where Episode IX will take us.



The other heroes represent an ongoing pattern of ascension and fall, glory and folly, which only we see Luke as being outside of, precisely because of the conventions discussed and the framing of the story onscreen. In universe he's no fundamentally different and there's no a priori reason his prominence should preclude him from following narratives other than that which we expect or desire. After all, if we can predict everything in advance, why bother watching the film at all? Equally, is he aware that he represents all our hopes and childhood ambitions? Does he factor that sort of fourth wall breaking into his decision making?

You keep shifting the goal posts, talking about the needs of the narrative and each characters place within the larger arc, but going on to talk about how the childish nature of the franchise invalidate arguments on that level when a counter is offered.

Don’t confuse childish with something being for children, or even childlike. I do not preclude its artistic merit with its function for children, I merely state it serves two masters, and in its Rush for one, it’s failing the other.

Luke already had his folly and fall, it was rather literal in Empire. He almost had it again in Jedi when he rejected the notion of killing Vader, choosing redemption instead, even when he thought he had failed in that. Ren kills the only figure who could redeem him when he drops his father. (Though that could change...the final film could, and may have to, fix some of these decisions.) Another decision full of negativity...once we felt for the children that have no parents...Luke, Leia, Anakin. Now they kill their forebears themselves, or have them stripped away for the value of shock revelation. The art mirrors its own creation in that regard. It’s a bit sadistic really.

It’s lost a chunk of its purpose, it’s soul, in the desire to subvert expectation it only has itself to blame for. It’s an edgy teen, it’s depth illusory and potentially lost. Which is a shame. Of course, JJ might change its course, if nothing else, he is fond of a production finding its moral core late in the day.

 

[mos6507]

jamie, I think the problem is that back in the 70s entertainment was bifurcated into two groups, family entertainment (primarily for kids) and adult entertainment that kids were largely shielded from (think Carnal Knowledge, Midnight Cowboy, The Deer Hunter, Apocalypse Now, etc...)

Today adult films are more juvenile and family films are more crude and adult. There's really no clear dividing line anymore. There are no rules anymore. It's mostly a byproduct of the internet not having any rules.

It means kids grow up way too fast. Their innocence and idealism gets stomped on almost immediately and they settle into sort of an extended adolescence of grownups who are still into childish things (and yes, Star Wars and Star Trek are part of it) but who have a more cynical world-weary mentality. They're not reading Nietche and watching Ingmar Bergman movies. They are entering Hollywood and injecting nihilism into old properties that weren't supposed to be any more sophisticated than The Wizard of Oz or the myth of Beowulf.

The toxic fandom thing is all about the above. It's those who want the old stuff to stay as it were and those who think that the world becomes a better place because Luke loses his mojo or Superman proclaims "nobody stays good in this world".

Meanwhile in the real world that nobody really wants to deal with, things just go to hell in a handbasket because we're too damn busy fighting over the depiction of Luke Skywalker or whether Rey is a Mary Sue.

 

[Mirror Tuvix]

Luke's "failure" or fall to cynicism or apathy etc. in TLJ seems to be misunderstood by fans, at least in regards to Rian Johnson's intentions. Johnson thinks Luke believes he is doing the right & courageous thing by hiding away on Porg Island. Luke gets the idea that the endless cycle of Sith-Jedi violence must end (after the Sithening of Pupil Ben), and he's doing his part by retiring.

(Maybe some kind of parallel to Luke tossing his saber in ROTJ.) Granted, this merits more explanation from Johnson, as that's about all he says on the topic during the audio commentary. So, Luke thinks the First Order will eventually peter out and adding Jedi to the mix will just exacerbate the problem, and he's willing to accept any death and suffering that is inflicted in the meantime? But then he realizes his longview on the arc of history is too detached and he really should help out the Resistance after all, just not with any passé Jedi violence?

I'd be interested in hearing Johnson address this a little more in depth. (Maybe he did, but know of it, I do not.)

 

[Refuge]

It’s not life. It’s fantasy. And Luke’s little section of it in particular is one that found its home with kids. Star Wars, essentially, is family viewing, shifts mountains of toys. Five year olds and thereabouts. It needs realism in its mainline stories about as much as the Godfather needs a few song and dance numbers a la Busby. Luke absolutely is that shining light.
Maybe it is safe, a little, but it’s certainly not a hinder on creativity for any creator worthy of the title.
The problem today is the nihilism turning up in many things. We call it post modern, we call it deconstruction, we throw all these nice criticisms at it from our media savvy adult world. But when we were kids, the heroes won, the baddies were defeated, good triumphed over evil. Where do today’s kids get that? Cos it won’t be in Star Wars where we got it. It’s not in Star Trek, cos that ain’t kid friendly anymore and it takes fifteen episodes of non kid friendly stuff to get there. Doctor Who? Maybe. Except we had a basically suicidal Doctor refusing to regenerate on Christmas Day while he visited by everyone he knew...and who were all dead.
When does the hero, the one the kids whoosh around pretending to be, get to live and be happy?
Because sod real life, I get real life in my real life, I want kids to aspire to be good, and live, and be happy...we don’t need to teach little boys and little girls that it’s all about dying for cause, before we teach them to live for a good one first.
That’s the first rule of these things: good triumphs over evil, the dragons can be fought and beaten.
It’s one we deconstruct into ‘there are no dragons, justa different point of view’ because we are such clever adults now.
That’s why Luke needed to stay a hero, though I do not think TLJ is quite the mess some people think, nor is it the glorious ‘anyone can be the hero’ others think...not least because who wants that job? You get to die alone with that job...it’s happened to every last one in the story now.
You can absolutely have a character be the obi wan, absolutely turn the wheel, but any creator worthy of the title knows how to play the game. Lucasfilm needs to fin one...even Rebels got dark, and lost the kid fans. It’s irresponsible to promise a story of hope, and give one with none.
People took Clerks little Empire discussion a little too much to heart.
Life is not a series of down endings.

I have to agree with everything you have contributed to this discussion, especially the reference to the fantasy element of this. In creating a hero and travelling with him/her the last thing you want is for his endgame to be... well, sad. People go to the movies to escape 'real' life not to be reminded of dreary failure. I can switch on the news for that.

 

[Refuge]

Going to add another comment and I don't wish to be defensive but I truly don't understand the notion that some in the fan base are being deemed a problem because they're not watching or reacting the way they *should*. What the hell? That is beyond arrogant Absolutely people shouldn't be harassing the production team but giving a critique and a rating is a given when you put something out there and especially when it is sold as a product. Now that is real life.

 

[jaime]

Luke's "failure" or fall to cynicism or apathy etc. in TLJ seems to be misunderstood by fans, at least in regards to Rian Johnson's intentions. Johnson thinks Luke believes he is doing the right & courageous thing by hiding away on Porg Island. Luke gets the idea that the endless cycle of Sith-Jedi violence must end, and he's doing his part by retiring.

(Maybe some kind of parallel to Luke tossing his saber in ROTJ.) Granted, this merits more explanation from Johnson, as that's about all he says on the topic during the audio commentary. So, Luke thinks the First Order will eventually peter out and adding Jedi to the mix will just exacerbate the problem, and he's willing to accept any death and suffering that is inflicted in the meantime? But then he realizes his longview on the arc of history is too detached and he really should help out the Resistance after all, just not with any passé Jedi violence?

I'd be interested in hearing Johnson address this a little more in depth. (Maybe he did, but know of it, I do not.)

That’s the thing. Once you hear about it, you can see what he’s aiming for. But the execution is...really bad. Not least as the minute Luke knows there’s force users and sith, he should be drying out his x wing sharpish. They borrowed from the old EU again here, but didn’t quite grasp why’s and wherefore...largely because I don’t think they knew it had been done before, and because it was all about subverting expectation and being a bit silly. And Reys parentage? Here we have the first female Jedi lead, and we are gonna go with ‘she’s no one special’ talk about an own goal. Even if we are going with ‘she got there more or less on her own’ well...so did Luke, but his story was enriched by his family dilemmas. It’s such a waste. Finn is becoming a coward who only stops running when there’s a pretty girl on the line, and Poe is just silly.
As a complete aside, Laura Dean is great, but the hair was daft in context. She ain’t Sabine Wren. Mon Mothma was better in that context.
Sigh.
Meh.
It could have been better.

Edit: Dern. Stoopid spellcheck.

 

[jaime]

Going to add another comment and I don't wish to be defensive but I truly don't understand the notion that some in the fan base are being deemed a problem because they're not watching or reacting the way the *should*. What the hell? That is beyond arrogant Absolutely people shouldn't be harassing the production team but giving a critique and a rating is a given when you put something out there and especially when it is sold as a product. Now that is real life.

They find our lack of faith disturbing.

 

[starsuperion]

Personally, I love destroying planets for fun.

Ah finally! So that was you who took out that planet between mars and Jupiter. Leaving the asteroid belt. Mystery solved. Now..let me take out Ganymede!

 

[fireproof78]

We never went to Star Wars for introspective character work. We went for expansive themes and battles. It’s kind of in the title.
It’s not French Arthouse ‘Trois Coleurs Skywalker’ or ‘Trent’s-sept degrees dans la Tatooine’.
That’s what happens when we sell action figures to thirty year olds who never grew up instead of the kids who should be playing with them. Lê sigh.

As mentioned by Spot, it cuts both ways. Star Wars is both an introspective film regarding the nature of man and his battle with good and evil. It is both a child like concept as well as one that has engaged the imaginations of adults for many years.

We cannot sit here and say "Oh, it's a stupid kid's film" when we have deep dramatic moments of Luke finding out about his father and that his mentors were lying to him. We cannot fault TLJ for taking this path when it was laid out by the prior installations of the story.

It’s lost a chunk of its purpose, it’s soul, in the desire to subvert expectation it only has itself to blame for. It’s an edgy teen, it’s depth illusory and potentially lost. Which is a shame. Of course, JJ might change its course, if nothing else, he is fond of a production finding its moral core late in the day.

I think that is rather harsh judgement for the middle of the story. But, then, Mark Hamill thought Luke was going to be on the Dark Side in ROTJ so errant interpretations are nothing new.

Going to add another comment and I don't wish to be defensive but I truly don't understand the notion that some in the fan base are being deemed a problem because they're not watching or reacting the way they *should*. What the hell? That is beyond arrogant Absolutely people shouldn't be harassing the production team but giving a critique and a rating is a given when you put something out there and especially when it is sold as a product. Now that is real life.

Should implies a standard that one party did not know existed. TLJ is being treated poorly because it did not perform as it should as well. So, in that instance, I agree. It is beyond arrogant to know exactly what a Star Wars film should be.

 

[starsuperion]

I don't know why the title of this thread is toxic fandom. I'd definitely say it's toxic media sites, blogs, and members of the studio themselves who are toxic, especially to fans who didn't like the highly polished turd they wanted to shove down everyone's throat, then proceed to call those fans idiots, toxic, misogonyst, bigots, and every other name they could think of. Simply for disagreeing. Rather then address their failings, and just decided to attack anyone who had a legitimate gripe with the movie. So much so that the director of TLJ purged 20,000 tweets from his toxic soap box.
Along with others. Are there toxic fans out there. Sure, they are in every fandom, but to the extent that it is the cause of Solo's failure, the backlash against TLJ, and the utter collapse of Star wars toy merchandise, the bread and butter of all movie franchises that seek to be successful, then no. Its not the toxic fans. Fans have a right to want something from their product. Sell us something we want and we will support it. Sell us something we don't want or like, and then attack us for not wanting it. Now that is a recipe for disaster.. Right now.

They've been throwing in all those ingrediants and it's where we are now. So I don't blame the fans. They are simply consumers. But don't attack me as a fan and a customer, if I'm not happy with the product. Cause that's just stupid business. My local Walmart stores, 3 of which I have frequented, and Target, all have a clearance isle full of new Disney Star Wars action figures and vehicles, some so cheap, and yet still multiples on the shelves. Even the classic line of figures are suffering, not so much in multiples, but you can almost find any one of the characters from the original movies easily.

That says to me..the arrogance and toxicity of those in the media, movie production staff, and the shills who seek to gain favors for favorable reviews and yet also attack the fans, are the reason why those sales are lacking. Used to be you could count on not only the new fans for purchases, but also the older adult fans for collection purposes. There are figures from TFA and Rogue 1 still on the shelves, and those are from the original release, not repackaged reissues.

Now..

They sit on shelves at clearance prices. Hell you couldn't give them away at this point. The fact the classic figures have also a hard time selling out is an indicator that Disney has a serious problem on their hands with their so called Golden Goose.

If they were smart, they would stop these arrogant condescending jerks in media from attacking and antagonizing the fans.
And focus on giving a good product all can enjoy. Instead of targeting a single demographic.