The Force Awakens Vs The Last Jedi
- Thread starter Saul
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I was disappointed in TFA. I did not find it to be a rehash of ANH as some do. I saw some similar setups, but the follow through was different. The crybabies out there seem to be disturbed mostly, not by the story Rian Johnson was trying to tell, but that he casually knocked aside many of the questions that JJ tried to build. I find JJ's story telling to be weak. He is great at creating characters and backstory, but not very good at moving forward with a plot and absolutely horrible at crafting an ending. TFA has some of the biggest story editing blunders in the entire saga. Also some of the worst science in ad admittedly low science franchise. My complaints carry over to Lost and the two Star Trek movies he did. Because of his failings I consider TFA to be the worst of all the movies. I have not really watched Rogue One, Solo, or TLJ enough to comparatively rate them, but I rank them all at the same level of not as good as the original three but far superior to the prequels. But I definitely rank all of them, even TFA, higher than Abrams Star Trek efforts and Generations (which I consider the worst of the first 10).
Both, and that's ok. It's what they do with those elements and build upon the lore that counts.
Nope.
When you boil it down to that level, yes there are parallels, but when you expand it out, they quickly evaporate and the differences are clear. At the same time, when you boil TFA and ANH down to that level, there is no similarity. The similarities only appear when you look at the larger details. An interesting oddity to ponder.
TESB actually has three plot threads.
First, there's Vader's attempt to find Luke Skywalker. That's the inciting incident for everything that happens in the film. It functions as an independent plot thread from the film's beginning up through when Han and Leia are brought to Vader in the dining room, and it provides the context for the big twist at the end, the reveal that he is Luke's father.
Second, there is Han and Leia's budding romance. It extends from Hoth through the asteroids to Bespin and even to the Rebel fleet at the end where Han's fate defines half of the cliffhanger.
Third, there is Luke's training as a Jedi and his being lured away from Yoda to confront Vader.
Everything comes together in Bespin.
I've already explained what the facts are in this instance, and see no reason to repeat myself.
Wow, you managed to hit two of my pet peeves in one sentence! First, if you can’t link to or copy/paste your own words, I just can’t take your opinion seriously. Oh, and that leads to point #2. Likely, your “facts?” They’re just opinions, which you’re more than welcome to have. But let’s not confuse the two.
^ JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan making The Force Awakens specifically to recapture their own personal feelings upon walking out of a theater in May 1977 is not an opinion; it is a fact based on their own statements regarding both TFA in particular and Star Wars in general.
I can’t find quotes where they suggested that, but I admittedly haven’t tried too hard at 5am today. So I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest they did say something akin to that. However, has it occurred to you that what they felt in 1977 is probably about what most people in 1977 felt when they went to see Star Wars? Not just theirs?
TFA cribs a lot from ANH. I won’t deny that for a second. But perhaps it’s less the plot elements they borrowed (which are far more Campbellian in the way of the hero’s journey than they are Lucasian, mind you) but instead the emotion that they’re talking about? That excitement and adventure that we all felt the first time we saw that Star Destroyer chasing this Princess’ blockade runner? The joy and wonder as we joined Luke on his first journey? The hilarious interactions of our three heroes? The fun of seeing two droids and a walking carpet as actual characters? The pure escapism of being in a galaxy far, far away?
Again, I don’t believe I’ve seen these quotes. If I have, it’s been about two and a half years. But the way you reference them, they could be interpreted your way. But I choose to suggest that we’re talking about emotion here. I have no issue with that. So, no, it’s more interpretation of the facts, which really is opinion.
But if an agenda about making a Star Wars film — no, the first Star Wars film in 30 years with the heroes many of us grew up with — having that nostalgia factor is some sort of nefarious plot fit for a Sith Lord? Call me Darth Campe.
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That's exactly what I'm talking about... and the problem isn't that they tried to do this, it's that they tried to do it at the expense of coherent and quality narrative.
And I tried to find Abrams and Kasdan's comments myself and couldn't, but I know what one of the sources is: the "Empire of Dreams: The Making of the Star Wars Trilogy" documentary.
I had no problem with the narrative. It was a FUN movie for me. And again, its fine you don't like it.
That's a great doc! Its been awhile since I've seen Empire of Dreams. Maybe that means its time for a rewatch. While I know Kasdan was interviewed for EoD, Abrams was just really coming into geek awareness (with Alias in its third or fourth season at the time and LOST just starting), so its possible he was interviewed for the doc. I honestly don't remember. But, EoD was released with the original Star Wars Trilogy DVD box set that came out in 2004. As far as I know, there hasn't been an update to it. But, I sincerely doubt they were speaking about what they wanted to do for a film that wouldn't come out for another eleven years. Especially since I believe at that point, Lucas declared that after Episode III, Star Wars was done.
Perhaps you mean Secrets of the Force Awakens: A Cinematic Journey?
Edit: According to the Wikipedia entry for Empire of Dreams, Abrams was not interviewed for that doc.
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I wouldn't refer to the intent to recapture a feeling of excitement out of nostalgia as any kind of "agenda," unless for some bizarre reason I intended to indicate that as something sinister. Instead I'd call it something much more unambiguously positive, like "the goal."
Several more pieces of information are revealed in that plot thread, and only in that plot thread. Through the Force, Vader can sense both Luke and someone on the Falcon who he thinks is Luke. He senses Luke when he's reading the probe droid feed, and he confuses a party on the Falcon with Luke when the Falcon is hiding in the asteroid field and his commanders are sure it's been destroyed. That actually tips the hand as to who Yoda is referring to when he says there is another hope: it's very likely someone on the Falcon. This is significant information.
But, you know, YMMV.
Of course it's a separate plot thread until things start coming together on Bespin. The Emperor and Vader have their own private conversation in that plot thread for the purpose of deciding whether to kill Luke or try to turn him. It would be absurd to say that any of the other characters are somehow a part of that conversation. This is the bad guy plot thread.
Several more pieces of information are revealed in that plot thread, and only in that plot thread. Through the Force, Vader can sense both Luke and someone on the Falcon who he thinks is Luke. He senses Luke when he's reading the probe droid feed, and he confuses a party on the Falcon with Luke when the Falcon is hiding in the asteroid field and his commanders are sure it's been destroyed. That actually tips the hand as to who Yoda is referring to when he says there is another hope: it's very likely someone on the Falcon. This is significant information.
But, you know, YMMV.
Exactly this.
Rian Johnson is the cancer.
And make no mistake. He is spreading and he is malignant.
And make no mistake. He is spreading and he is malignant.
Maybe it was one of the History Channel's Star Wars programs, because I know he's spoken on-camera about how he views Star Wars in general and how he felt upon seeing the first SW film for the first time in 1977, which directly informed how he approached TFA and the choices he made for it.
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