Excelsior Technical Manual (Third Time's The Charm?)

[Praetor]

Work is still kicking my butt so I don't have anything to show today. However, I've been doing some thinking about the Excelsior's warp core and was wondering everyone's opinion.

In Star Trek III, we pretty clearly see that the Excelsior has a warp core very similar to the refit Enterprise as seen in TMP and TWOK, in the scene where Scotty encounters Captain Styles on his way out:

Clearly, this is a partial redress of the Enterprise engine room, although the particular details seem to give the impression that this is a larger room. You can clearly make out the angular section of the core on the very edge of the frame, as well as the grey dividers. There doesn't seem to be a glow from the core other than the ambient lighting.

We probably don't see the Excelsior's engine room again - unless one of the flash cuts in the battle in Star Trek VI were meant to show it - and we never see an Excelsior class engine room again, in any series or film. This leaves me wondering what the Excelsior warp core really looked like.

We do, however, see the Enterprise-A's engine room twice - in TFF and TUC. In TFF we see some partial set of a room with a glow from off camera that was clearly meant to be some sort of engineering space. This appears to be a redress of the "Jefferies tube" set from the same movie, with some added consoles and some kind of light, but no actual warp core. We know that the real world reason for this is that the set had been converted to represent the Enterprise-D engine room for TNG.

...and in TUC of course, we see that very engine room passed as the Enteprise-A engine room, albeit with some 23rd century control graphics and other changes to reflect the period. We never get an overly clear look of the chief engineer's office, but we see the core in a few shots and it is very clearly the TNG core, pulsing towards the center dilithium chamber as on TNG. (Interestingly, the TNG "pool table" appears to have been replaced with a glass monitoring display in one shot towards the end.)

Whether we actually saw a space meant to represent the Excelsior engine room in TUC is somewhat irrelevant. We can infer with almost complete certainty that if we had seen it, it would look just like that of the Enterprise again and thereby the TNG engine room by extension. I know the real world reason the core looks like the TNG core, but I can't help but wonder what conclusion to draw from this. Were the Enterprise-A and Excelsior equipped with TNG-style warp drives, or should we squint and pretend that they're not "exactly" the same even though they look the same.

We know that the TNG warp core uses matter and antimatter streams sent from opposite top and bottom ends of the warp core towards a single central dilithium assembly, but know little about how the previous TMP-style core worked. Mr. Sternbach presented the idea that Voyager's warp core worked very similarly to the TMP-style core, and was lined with dilithium, with matter and antimatter swirling and reacting throughout. Others have postulated that there was an unseen reactor in the TMP Enterprise, at the bottom of the shaft, and all we saw was a power transfer conduit. Additionally, this kind of core seems to correspond to the presence of a deflection crystal - whatever the actual role of this equipment actually is.

Complicating matters more, in TNG we do see a different style warp core on the aged U.S.S. Hathaway, which was a contemporary of Enterprise-A and Excelsior:

This seems to very clearly be a TNG style central core, as LaForge and Wesley note the lack of dilithium crystals in the reaction chamber. Additionally, the displays on the bridge seem to show angled power transfer conduits rather than a straight TMP-style warp core from nacelle pair to nacelle pair:

Now, this might not have been the original core on the Hathaway, but one must wonder, since she was depicted as an aged, rundown ship.

So, is it possible that the TNG-style core was introduced on the Excelsior, with a prototypical version of it installed on the Constellation class? In this case, the Enterprise-A would serve as an ultimately failed testbed for the application of the technology from Excelsior to the Constitution class. But if this is true, how is power transferred to the deflection crystals on Constellation and Excelsior? Clearly it is possible to have deflection crystals with a TNG-type core, since the Constellation class had them.

Alternatively, maybe the Excelsior and Enterprise-A "really" had TMP-style cores and we should gloss over what we saw in TUC because we know the real-world reasons for it. This feels like a cheat to me, though. And even if this was true, would they have kept the TMP-style cores throughout their operational lifetimes or have been upgraded to a TNG setup at some point?

Curious to hear if any of you have thoughts. I'm definitely on the fence.

 

[Norsehound]

Re: Enterprise-A - on top of TuC (depending on what you accept in your canon), the Enterprise-A also had a 2270s refit warp core installed when she launched from spacedock in ST4... along with red carpeting and other cosmetic changes to match the white TMP bridge that was ultimately scrapped before 5.

There's an interview from Good Morning America in '86 which tours the Ent-A sets before they were redressed/destroyed!

------------

The way I'd approach what Excelsior had in the engine room is to consider the following:

TMP is 2270s, and it's kind of implied that Enterprise is a cutting-edge refit. She and some of her contemporaries (Miranda... I'd hazard Abbe, Belknap, Akyazi, Andor, a lot of similar-looking ships) share the same technology and components. So, lots of new-era stuff.

Excelsior is operational by 2285, over a decade later. The 2270s cores are probably standard at that point. Would Excelsior need this core to power the ship during its testing, or does it need a newer and bigger system to fulfill the transwarp drive's ambitions (does it require several?). It could be that Excelsior was fitted with a 2270 refit core for its operations, then upgraded to a bigger core to try solving some problems before Transwarp was abandoned. Maybe one fix after Excelsior was stranded was to chuck the 2270s core. Then again, If it's good enough for the refit Enterprise-A to mount one in 2286, maybe it's good enough for Excelsior too.

Constellation is cira 2290s- two decades after the Enterprise Refit. For me personally I accept she's a prototype new cruiser that does more than the Mirandas (replacing Refit Constitutions) could... and also being the follow-on prototype in case the Excelsior has to be scrapped completely. That new warp core could have come out of one developed for the Excelsior to replace the original 2270s core? Whatever it is, its good enough to be fleet standard.

(Then again I personally think where we meet the Constellation was the result of a lot of post-construction retrofitting that cut into the beautiful TMP-era hull smoothness with a lot of follow-ons that junked the ship. Maybe the Warp Core is a late addition from scrapped New Orleans frigates that got passed on to the Constellations to keep them operable. I dunno).

That's my take. I think you can re-write this any way you want to though to explain it any way you wish though.

 

[Tomalak]

The obvious TUC set redress isn't great, and it's very tempting to pretend it it isn't exactly the same as the TNG reaction chamber, even though it obviously is. It's a shame they couldn't change the lights or give it a redress, but there we are. It always makes me laugh that Meyer attempts to disguise it by packing the room with extras, but then shows the core in all its familiar TV glory.

However, this doesn't really matter for the Excelsior. As you say, aside from a tiny glimpse at sormthing which may or may not be the TMP style core in Star Trek III (but could easily be some other power conduit), we see nothing of the Excelsior's engineering deck, so you're free to make it look like whatever you want.

I've always thought that the NX Excelsior had a conventional warp core and an entirely separate Transwarp drive, as the dialogue suggests they are different things.

There's also no need to think that anything we see on TSFS is still there on the TUC ship, as the ship has obviously had extensive internal changes - two deflection crystals rather than one, totally different bridge for example.

For what it's worth, making the NCC-2000 the first ship to have a TNG style core makes sense, as it looks like the Enterprise-B has one in the MSD. It also means the Excelsior was a significant leap forward even though transwarp wasn't the breakthrough they hoped for.

 

[NervousEnergy]

Not to derail the conversation, but I've always really loved the interpretation of the Excelsior Experiment being a complete success: transwarp was a faster and more efficient way of reaching warp speeds, and led to the redefinition of the warpscale between TOS and TNG. Eventually the 'trans' was dropped and it just became normal warp.

So in that sense, it'd make sense for the Excelsior to have a TNG style warpcore!

 

[Rekkert]

I agree with @NervousEnergy's point, I always took the Excelsior transwarp as a success which lead to the faster ships of TNG, hence a vertical warp core would make sense.

Regarding main engineering's design, I always envisioned it pretty much like what we saw on the USS Dallas on the old game Elite Force 2: similar in layout to the Ent-D engineering, but with different aesthetics. Of course the game takes place in a post-Nemesis timeframe, so a lot of stuff would be different on the original Excelsior; metal floor, blue accents, etc. I was planning to work on a 3D model of an Excelsior-class engineering when I had the time, but I've been (luckly) unable to start given the commissioned work I'm doing.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I loved the depiction of Excelsior's engineering in the old 1980's DC comics. A huge open area, with multiple horizontal intermix chambers, with escalators and catwalks. I'm not sure it'd fit with modern depictions, but it captured my imagination as a kid

 

[Praetor]

Re: Enterprise-A - on top of TuC (depending on what you accept in your canon), the Enterprise-A also had a 2270s refit warp core installed when she launched from spacedock in ST4... along with red carpeting and other cosmetic changes to match the white TMP bridge that was ultimately scrapped before 5.

There's an interview from Good Morning America in '86 which tours the Ent-A sets before they were redressed/destroyed!

------------

The way I'd approach what Excelsior had in the engine room is to consider the following:

TMP is 2270s, and it's kind of implied that Enterprise is a cutting-edge refit. She and some of her contemporaries (Miranda... I'd hazard Abbe, Belknap, Akyazi, Andor, a lot of similar-looking ships) share the same technology and components. So, lots of new-era stuff.

Excelsior is operational by 2285, over a decade later. The 2270s cores are probably standard at that point. Would Excelsior need this core to power the ship during its testing, or does it need a newer and bigger system to fulfill the transwarp drive's ambitions (does it require several?). It could be that Excelsior was fitted with a 2270 refit core for its operations, then upgraded to a bigger core to try solving some problems before Transwarp was abandoned. Maybe one fix after Excelsior was stranded was to chuck the 2270s core. Then again, If it's good enough for the refit Enterprise-A to mount one in 2286, maybe it's good enough for Excelsior too.

Constellation is cira 2290s- two decades after the Enterprise Refit. For me personally I accept she's a prototype new cruiser that does more than the Mirandas (replacing Refit Constitutions) could... and also being the follow-on prototype in case the Excelsior has to be scrapped completely. That new warp core could have come out of one developed for the Excelsior to replace the original 2270s core? Whatever it is, its good enough to be fleet standard.

(Then again I personally think where we meet the Constellation was the result of a lot of post-construction retrofitting that cut into the beautiful TMP-era hull smoothness with a lot of follow-ons that junked the ship. Maybe the Warp Core is a late addition from scrapped New Orleans frigates that got passed on to the Constellations to keep them operable. I dunno).

That's my take. I think you can re-write this any way you want to though to explain it any way you wish though.

That interview is great! Never saw that before.

A lot of good ideas there and a lot to mull over. I could definitely see the initial Excelsior core being the "swirl" TMP kind, but the final kind being a sort of proto-TNG core that was crammed into the existing ship. This could actually help explain the awkardness of how it would have to fit into the ship as designed...

The obvious TUC set redress isn't great, and it's very tempting to pretend it it isn't exactly the same as the TNG reaction chamber, even though it obviously is. It's a shame they couldn't change the lights or give it a redress, but there we are. It always makes me laugh that Meyer attempts to disguise it by packing the room with extras, but then shows the core in all its familiar TV glory.

However, this doesn't really matter for the Excelsior. As you say, aside from a tiny glimpse at sormthing which may or may not be the TMP style core in Star Trek III (but could easily be some other power conduit), we see nothing of the Excelsior's engineering deck, so you're free to make it look like whatever you want.

I've always thought that the NX Excelsior had a conventional warp core and an entirely separate Transwarp drive, as the dialogue suggests they are different things.

There's also no need to think that anything we see on TSFS is still there on the TUC ship, as the ship has obviously had extensive internal changes - two deflection crystals rather than one, totally different bridge for example.

For what it's worth, making the NCC-2000 the first ship to have a TNG style core makes sense, as it looks like the Enterprise-B has one in the MSD. It also means the Excelsior was a significant leap forward even though transwarp wasn't the breakthrough they hoped for.

That last bit was definitely where my head has been at for a long time, other than how awkward the TNG core fits into her. Maybe the idea that it started with a "swirl" and ended up with a TNG core really does work.

Not to derail the conversation, but I've always really loved the interpretation of the Excelsior Experiment being a complete success: transwarp was a faster and more efficient way of reaching warp speeds, and led to the redefinition of the warpscale between TOS and TNG. Eventually the 'trans' was dropped and it just became normal warp.

So in that sense, it'd make sense for the Excelsior to have a TNG style warpcore!

Derail by all means. I tend to agree... in the narrative I tried to play it both ways: it wasn't what they wanted, but it succeeded in inventing the "modern" warp drive which, combined with a desire to save face, caused Starfleet to deem it a success.

I agree with @NervousEnergy's point, I always took the Excelsior transwarp as a success which lead to the faster ships of TNG, hence a vertical warp core would make sense.

Regarding main engineering's design, I always envisioned it pretty much like what we saw on the USS Dallas on the old game Elite Force 2: similar in layout to the Ent-D engineering, but with different aesthetics. Of course the game takes place in a post-Nemesis timeframe, so a lot of stuff would be different on the original Excelsior; metal floor, blue accents, etc. I was planning to work on a 3D model of an Excelsior-class engineering when I had the time, but I've been (luckly) unable to start given the commissioned work I'm doing.

That's what I always kind of pictured too... although I forgot about USS Dallas. I think you're right about that being how it should end up looking.

I loved the depiction of Excelsior's engineering in the old 1980's DC comics. A huge open area, with multiple horizontal intermix chambers, with escalators and catwalks. I'm not sure it'd fit with modern depictions, but it captured my imagination as a kid

The potential for a long horizontal core also helps with the ship's length... especially if you play up the idea that with the swirl core, the bigger the core the more power. Plus there is that little humpback to account for. That thing must do something.

Currently I'm thinking that she's going to start with a slightly beefier TMP-style "swirl" core that has a secondary set of antimatter pods (think afterburner) in the humpback. This is the transwarp engine. After this, the new proto-TNG style core is designed, taking up much less space. The TNG-style core is probably mostly patterned after the "afterburner" and while it occupies much the same space as the vertical portion of the swirl core, takes up much less space. Engineering may or may not get moved up somewhat in the neck to make the core an equal-ish length.

The one issue that the TNG core leaves us with, is what to do about saucer separation. The only really good place for a vertical warp core leaves part of it in the saucer, which is fine with a swirl core but sucks in a TNG-style core. Maybe the solution is to have a really short core?

Anyway, I finished roughing out the deck spaces and need to clean them up a bit, so perhaps it's time to start fitting her with a core. Please note that I haven't accounted for the lower docking bay yet, and a few other details are still missing. Adding these details will probably be the next priority.

I have to say: even though it's nowhere near done, getting this far and watching the deck-by-deck outline progress is pretty mesmerizing.

 

[Tomalak]

Love the graphics!

What's the problem with saucer separation? I thought you'd decided it would be an emergency procedure rather than a Galaxy-style ''on the fly" routine separation and reconnection manoeuvre?

Presumably you could simply have an isolated section on the separation plane which cuts off the warp core? This is what MSGTTE suggests IIRC.

I suppose it depends on what the impulse deflection crystal(s) is/are for. If you don't need them to be part of the warp system you can have a shorter core in the secondary hull. If you want them to link up to the vertical intermix shaft(s) it might need more thought.

 

[NervousEnergy]

So. Cool.

 

[The Librarian]

You could have the upper part of the core and matter injector at the very top of the neck, with most of the neck being fuel, and a plasma conduit running parallel up beside it to the impulse deck. I think that would still be almost as tall as the TNG core.

 

[trekfan39]

Hey Praetor still loving this tread please keep up the good work! If it was me doing this I don't think I would put a lot of thought into how the core looks on the outside because if both ships were real world things the cores wouldn't be the same on the inside as we know the Enterprise-D had her core designed in the 2360s decades after Excelsior entered service so looks aside they can't be the same, I would personally ignore this issue, but of course that is your call. However if you decide to deal with it remember that the ships Corridors, Sickbay and Engine room all looked the same on a lot of Starfleet ships for decades so maybe all of those class's just had the same interior designer who finally passed away in the 2360s which is why the Intrepid, Defiant and Sovereign all looked different inside.

 

[Praetor]

Love the graphics!

What's the problem with saucer separation? I thought you'd decided it would be an emergency procedure rather than a Galaxy-style ''on the fly" routine separation and reconnection manoeuvre?

Presumably you could simply have an isolated section on the separation plane which cuts off the warp core? This is what MSGTTE suggests IIRC.

I suppose it depends on what the impulse deflection crystal(s) is/are for. If you don't need them to be part of the warp system you can have a shorter core in the secondary hull. If you want them to link up to the vertical intermix shaft(s) it might need more thought.

Thank you!

With saucer separation, my only thought was that we haven't seen a TNG-style core split by a saucer separation before. Additionally, the way the TMP "swirl" core was portrayed the core fed directly into the deflection crystal(s), which I'd say won't be possible with the "matter from one end/antimatter from the other" approach.

More on the deflection crystals in a minute...

So. Cool.

Thank you!!

You could have the upper part of the core and matter injector at the very top of the neck, with most of the neck being fuel, and a plasma conduit running parallel up beside it to the impulse deck. I think that would still be almost as tall as the TNG core.

You're right, it actually does seem to be about the same amount of space.

Hey Praetor still loving this tread please keep up the good work! If it was me doing this I don't think I would put a lot of thought into how the core looks on the outside because if both ships were real world things the cores wouldn't be the same on the inside as we know the Enterprise-D had her core designed in the 2360s decades after Excelsior entered service so looks aside they can't be the same, I would personally ignore this issue, but of course that is your call. However if you decide to deal with it remember that the ships Corridors, Sickbay and Engine room all looked the same on a lot of Starfleet ships for decades so maybe all of those class's just had the same interior designer who finally passed away in the 2360s which is why the Intrepid, Defiant and Sovereign all looked different inside.

Thank you! I tend to agree with you... they have to look "similar" but don't necessarily have to work exactly the same. Still, I think the overall visual cues - the swirl lights vs. the pulsing lights, for example - do suggest a difference in operation. Still, there is merit in not being overly specific.

This is slapped together really quickly - actually pasted in from the last version of the cutaway I was working on - just to show what I've been thinking. Please forgive the graphical errors that are rather rampant.

Prototype Configuration:

In this concept, as I alluded to before, the core will be a somewhat beefier version of the TMP "swirl" core to support what we saw ever so briefly in "TSFS." This core connects directly to the base of the single large deflection crystal that we saw on the NX version of the ship. In my concept, in addition to "deflecting" plasma into the impulse engines from the warp drive, the deflection crystal also plays a role in lowering the ships mass for impulse flight, as the latter-day modern impulse driver coil had not been invented yet.

The nacelle support "humpback" contains a secondary reactor "afterburner" as well as the main EPS power taps. This secondary reactor and its additional pods provide the extra oomph necessary for the transwarp engine. Tests of this engine would lead to major refinements in warp core design. The core would be upgraded and replaced a few times during testing, as some of them were tested to near destruction.

By the time the Transwarp Development Project ended, a new type of core would be the product of this research...

Production Configuration:

Here, the ship's core has been replaced with a "collider" TNG-style core that would set the standard for the next eighty years. This core takes up much the same space as its predecessor, although the single large deflection crystal has been replaced with two smaller ones. (Engineers believed that two smaller crystals would better share the workload and provide additional impulse maneuverability, a problem that was never entirely solved during the ship's design lifetime.) Newly developed cooling equipment was also installed. Branches of the power transfer conduits are routed up to the deflection crystals to provide impulse power interconnectivity.

During this refit, the main engine room also took on its new aesthetic... meaning it would no longer look like the TMP engine room and instead more strongly resemble the TNG engine room. The secondary reactor and other transwarp equipment were all removed, leaving just the EPS power taps in the humpback along with space for future hardware upgrades. In fact, the removal of the transwarp drive systems would provide much future expansion space and provide additional longevity to the design.

In both arrangements, the cores separate at the primary/secondary hull separation plane, leaving the core inoperative. Main matter tanks for the impulse engines are located below the engines and fuels the core as well. Both cores and antimatter pods are ejectable down through the deflector cowling, as Jackill once suggested. (The secondary reactor and antimatter pods could be ejected upward from the humpback.) Over the years, no doubt newer versions of the basic TNG-style core design would be installed.

I'm feeling pretty good about the progression so far, but I do need to figure out how one long horizontal power transfer conduit gives way to two split ones for the TNG core refit and exactly how much space this will take up. (Two does have the virtue of making more sense via redundancy.) Likely this would be a smaller pair of conduits, hidden behind the engineering wall that we saw in TNG.

Oh, and the alignments on the deflection crystal placement and basically everything else aren't final yet.

 

[Tomalak]

I like it! Having deflection crystals play a role in lowering the mass of the ship for impulse works for me, and explains why we never seen them again on Starships after the Excelsior.

 

[Firebird]

Praetor, in the first graphic showing the TMP warp core configuration, is that white box near the secondary hull separation line the matter/antimatter reaction chamber? Would that be placed nearer to the location of the horizontal core going to the supply lines for the engines in the final version?

 

[Praetor]

I like it! Having deflection crystals play a role in lowering the mass of the ship for impulse works for me, and explains why we never seen them again on Starships after the Excelsior.

Thanks! I actually can't take original credit for that one; I believe it was @Timo who originally suggested it in a thread a few years back and it has stuck with me ever since. I think both the traditional "deflecting" power role and "deflecting" mass role can work together.

Praetor, in the first graphic showing the TMP warp core configuration, is that white box near the secondary hull separation line the matter/antimatter reaction chamber? Would that be placed nearer to the location of the horizontal core going to the supply lines for the engines in the final version?

That's actually the separation line "valve," I just drew it very lazily.

In Mr. Probert's drawing of the TMP Enterprise, it has a more tapered look to it, and eventually mine will too.

As far as the reactor location goes, with the "swirl" setup Mr. Sternbach had suggested that the TMP-style core is lined with dilithium at strategic points, so I don't think there would be one main reactor location other than the Spock death room from TWOK which the Excelsior may or may not have in her prototype state. I haven't decided yet.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I like it! Having deflection crystals play a role in lowering the mass of the ship for impulse works for me, and explains why we never seen them again on Starships after the Excelsior.

The Hutzel, Centaur, Curry, Raging Queen, Jupp and all the myriad Miranda variants (except Bozeman) had them and the Stargazer actually had two. If the Probert Ambassador had become canon, it would have had one as well. I’ll need to think on that if any others did.

 

[Tomalak]

The Hutzel, Centaur, Curry, Raging Queen, Jupp and all the myriad Miranda variants (except Bozeman) had them and the Stargazer actually had two.

The point is that those are all variants of the Excelsior or even older Constitution refits. Newer designs into the 24th century don't have deflection crystals.

Actually, the one example I can think of is the Defiant's shuttle Chaffee, which appears to have a scaled down version of the refit Enterprise's impulse deck strapped to the back. According to Memory Alpha, it was the CGI artist's addition.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Good catch! Speaking of that, Defiant, herself, does seem to have eight blue-glowing dorsal-mounted devices, four on either side, that may be deflection crystal equivalents. The high number of such surface details may correlate to the high power output relative to the size of the ship.

 

[Praetor]

Good observations! If I had known, I had forgotten about the impulse unit on the shuttlecraft Chaffee.

To me, it seems likely that the glowing component is the same as the eight glowing components on the Defiant. However, what role those play, and whether they are the same as the deflection crystals of old, is debatable. I've never seen those eight objects on the Defiant labeled on any diagram, but for some reason the term "plasma vents" comes to mind.

Indeed, the unusual design of the Defiant has a number of distinct surface details that do not seem to correspond to previous starship designs. For that reason, I am personally inclined to include that those eight objects and the object on the Chaffee aren't the same as deflection crystals. In-universe, the object on the Chaffee surely isn't really a scaled down refit Constitution class impulse deck.

Nothing to show today, but I hope to make some more progress this weekend in adding some features corresponding to surface details and cleaning up the decks. Adding the details of the large secondary hull hangar is also on the agenda, as well as perhaps figuring out the engine layout in the deck plans. I'd also like to figure out whether adding the nacelles and pylons to the plans is worth it; right now I'm leaning towards yes.

I also need to reconcile the various lists of features by deck that I have compiled and start figuring out if there is enough space on each deck for those features, and whether they make sense to be there.

More to come!

 

[yotsuya]

Praetor, one of my random searches for Excelsior drawings brought up your latest attempt at this project. Nice to see you haven't given up. I have a bunch of drawings to share with you this time. Since October I have been working on accurate drawings of the studio model. I am nearly done and am currently working on the Enterprise B/Lakota variation. I have a large cache of drawings and have gathered a lot of data on the original model and other models used so I made a website (https://sites.google.com/view/excelsior-thegreatexperiment/home). Anyone wanting the original resolution of the images should contact me because google resized all of them.

After consulting several people and using photoshop to rescale parts of some of the three nearly plan view photos. I compared my results to what you have and outside of the nacelles, we have reached nearly the same proportions. I found the nacelles to be smaller than what you have. I have to run or I would post more.