Spoilers Timeless Season 2 - SPOILERS

[sttngfan1701d]

Nixon was also seen as unhealthy. He sprained his knee and also spent two months in bed or something during the campaign from exhaustion. Ironic since Kennedy was pumped full of all sorts of drugs to keep peppy and to mask Addison's disease, among other things. I would guess the TV debate made a difference, but in reality Nixon should've won easily. He didn't because Kennedy ran the first campaign in a modern sense. He was catchy. He had slogans and Sinatra sang his song.

Nixon had basically been de-facto president already for a couple of stretches, after Eisenhower had a heart attack and a stroke during his terms. He felt he'd win no problem.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Good episode, but once again, played loose with real history. JFK was a popular president, but he was not a good one until the Cuban missile crisis. His first year in office was a disaster. He was completely out of his league, and did a terrible job both with foreign and domestic policy.

Then the Cuban Missile Crisis hit, and he was fantastic. I believe that the last 5 years of his presidency would have been much better had he not been killed. We would have avoided a lot of terrible things that LBJ forced on the American people, and I think our country would have been much better off today. Not having LBJ as president would have been addition by subtraction.

And the revisionist history was a joke. JFK was not some sort of savior that prevented nuclear war. He actually brought us to the brink–he just happened to be right. But given that Nixon was president a few years later and didn’t destroy the world, I think it’s safe to say that for all we know, the crisis in Cuba never even happens. We just don’t know, but I do believe we had competent people on both sides of the aisle.

Likewise, the Civil Rights Act happened with bi-partisan support. No one party can take credit for that. Things weren’t the way they are today.

America would have been fine had JFK never been president. Maybe even better because JFK’s death led to LBJ whose policies are still hurting our country.

What would have been interesting would have been if they had successfully prevented JFK’s assassination.

Of course the show violated its own rules. The second that coin changed to Nixon (which made no sense), everyone should have forgotten JFK, including the time travelers (except Flint).

If JFK had that warning about his family, he could have taken steps to save his siblings.

What would have been REALLY interesting would have been if this experience saved Joe Jr., and HE was president.

 

[Christopher]

One weird bit is how the cute girl said to JFK "Your secret is safe with me" and everyone just accepted that as the end of the problem. Shouldn't she have been dragged in by Agent Christopher's people and required to sign a ton of nondisclosure agreements?

Also, why did the half-dollar coin change before JFK was shot, when nothing else changed? Come to think of it, would it even have been possible for Emma to kill him? I mean, normally the show's logic is that everyone forgets the original history except the people who are back in time "when" the change happens (itself a problematical phrase, but never mind). This time, though, Emma and the others were in the present, in the timeline that would be changed by JFK's death, and the conversation between Mason, Rufus, and Jiya indicated that they would all forget JFK instantly if he died. So that means Emma and Rittenhouse would've forgotten him too, so he would never have been targeted for assassination, and indeed would never have been brought forward in time in the first place, so then he'd be safe, but that would mean he did become president, which would mean he would have been targeted, and you've got yourself a classic paradox loop. This sort of thing only makes sense (insofar as the physically absurd idea of an "overwritten" timeline can be said to make sense for narrative purposes) if the instigators of the temporal change are somehow shielded from its effects, and that wasn't the case here. Usually the team (and presumably Rittenhouse) relies on its time travelers to fill them in on what's changed, but in this case, the only person who was back in time was Flynn (and presumably the Ritt. sleepers at various times in history).

 

[sttngfan1701d]

When the coin changed to Nixon, I thought they'd make JFK live but not be POTUS.

Still an interesting episode, though. Given the ratings, a season 3 is unlikely. I'd like if all the episodes were this fun until the end.

 

[Guy Gardener]

One weird bit is how the cute girl said to JFK "Your secret is safe with me" and everyone just accepted that as the end of the problem. Shouldn't she have been dragged in by Agent Christopher's people and required to sign a ton of nondisclosure agreements?

Also, why did the half-dollar coin change before JFK was shot, when nothing else changed? Come to think of it, would it even have been possible for Emma to kill him? I mean, normally the show's logic is that everyone forgets the original history except the people who are back in time "when" the change happens (itself a problematical phrase, but never mind). This time, though, Emma and the others were in the present, in the timeline that would be changed by JFK's death, and the conversation between Mason, Rufus, and Jiya indicated that they would all forget JFK instantly if he died. So that means Emma and Rittenhouse would've forgotten him too, so he would never have been targeted for assassination, and indeed would never have been brought forward in time in the first place, so then he'd be safe, but that would mean he did become president, which would mean he would have been targeted, and you've got yourself a classic paradox loop. This sort of thing only makes sense (insofar as the physically absurd idea of an "overwritten" timeline can be said to make sense for narrative purposes) if the instigators of the temporal change are somehow shielded from its effects, and that wasn't the case here. Usually the team (and presumably Rittenhouse) relies on its time travelers to fill them in on what's changed, but in this case, the only person who was back in time was Flynn (and presumably the Ritt. sleepers at various times in history).

Remember in Stargate Continuum how the present "rearranged" in phases, how the oldest objects/people disappeared, or got their new position in the present, first, and how that O'Niel saw the present collapse around him until he also rejiggered into a Submarine Captain?

The 50 cent coin got re-minted before Emma was born, so it's properties were changed before hers were.

Roddy McDowall replacing Dean Stockman in Quantum Leap too.

Percentages count before certainty locks shit in.

 

[Romulan_spy]

It always puzzles me how Rittenhouse just gives up and moves on to the next mission whenever our intrepid trio foil their first attempt. Since they have a time machine, why not just try again and again a bit later? What's stopping Rittenhouse from just sending another agent a week later or a month later or a year later and trying again and again to kill JFK?

 

[Nerys Myk]

It always puzzles me how Rittenhouse just gives up and moves on to the next mission whenever our intrepid trio foil their first attempt. Since they have a time machine, why not just try again and again a bit later? What's stopping Rittenhouse from just sending another agent a week later or a month later or a year later and trying again and again to kill JFK?

Timelock.

 

[Christopher]

It always puzzles me how Rittenhouse just gives up and moves on to the next mission whenever our intrepid trio foil their first attempt. Since they have a time machine, why not just try again and again a bit later? What's stopping Rittenhouse from just sending another agent a week later or a month later or a year later and trying again and again to kill JFK?

Standard TV supervillain logic. Never repeat a plan once it's been foiled.

I guess it could be rationalized, though -- they probably have a finite number of sleeper agents, and each one is an investment of years of preparation, so they aren't easy to replace. We just have to assume that they needed a sleeper in a position of trust to get close to JFK, because surely nobody could just hide in an upper-story window and point a rifle at him as he goes by... okay, that theory needs some work.

 

[Mr Awe]

It always puzzles me how Rittenhouse just gives up and moves on to the next mission whenever our intrepid trio foil their first attempt. Since they have a time machine, why not just try again and again a bit later? What's stopping Rittenhouse from just sending another agent a week later or a month later or a year later and trying again and again to kill JFK?

And, really, if there goal is to just kill someone, that should be pretty easy. As you say, they can try at any point in time. And, the heroes can't defend all points in time!

 

[Mr Awe]

Standard TV supervillain logic. Never repeat a plan once it's been foiled.

I guess it could be rationalized, though -- they probably have a finite number of sleeper agents, and each one is an investment of years of preparation, so they aren't easy to replace. We just have to assume that they needed a sleeper in a position of trust to get close to JFK, because surely nobody could just hide in an upper-story window and point a rifle at him as he goes by... okay, that theory needs some work.

You don't need a sleeper agent. Just send an assassin from the future to shoot the target dead at any random point in history when it's not expected.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The assassination of a president underlines weakness.

Putting the right people in place, in the first place, seems stronger.

Which brings us back to Nixon getting assassinated in '63.

Lone Gunman vs. US Government Conspiracy vs. Russian Conspiracy vs. The Mob.

Identical regicidal forces were at work in both timelines, so who (of the four above) would want to kill both Kennedy or Nixon, whichever stud wound up sitting in the Oval?

 

[Nerys Myk]

The assassination of a president underlines weakness.

Putting the right people in place, in the first place, seems stronger.

Which brings us back to Nixon getting assassinated in '63.

Lone Gunman vs. US Government Conspiracy vs. Russian Conspiracy vs. The Mob.

Identical regicidal forces were at work in both timelines, so who would want to kill both Kennedy or Nixon, whosoever wound up sitting in the Oval?

I guess they want Henry Cabot Lodge Jr.in the White House.His family must be Rittenhouse.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Of the Riverdale Lodges?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Of the Riverdale Lodges?

The Massachusetts Lodges.

 

[Forbin]

I believe that the last 5 years of his presidency would have been much better had he not been killed.

Yes, that did put a crimp in his style.

 

[UssGlenn]

Likewise, the Civil Rights Act happened with bi-partisan support. No one party can take credit for that. Things weren’t the way they are today.

There is an argument to be made that the Civil Rights bills, the Moon landing and most of LBJ's "Great Society" legislation wouldn't happened as early as they did (if at all) without JFK dying. Fulfilling the dreams/goals of our slain president, as a method of mourning/healing.

 

[Kirk Prime]

The Great Society led us to the welfare state and the high debt that we are in today. It was not a good thing at all for the country. So to that extent, it would have been much better had JFK lived. JFK also wouldn't have been as inept as LBJ was in Vietnam. JFK turned a corner with Cuba.

As for Civil Rights, maybe not in 1964, but before JFK left office in 1969, it would have been done. It wasn't far off because it had bipartisan support.

A lot of things would have been different. If JFK doesn't screw up Vietnam like LBJ did, it's possible Nixon doesn't win in 1968. If Nixon doesn't win, then Watergate never happens. Maybe we get Reagan as president in 1976 instead of 1980. It's fascinating to imagine if the country would have been better off had JFK lived.

 

[Kirk Prime]

You know a very good point was brought up here. If Rittenhouse wants to stop JFK from becoming president, why not try again?

Kill JFK at any other point in his life.

Kill JFK's father, or grandfather, or just about anyone ancestor.

Or even more interesting, stop Joseph Kennedy Jr. from being killed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kill JFK at any other point in his life.

What about Texas 1963?

 

[Timewalker]

The show did not say that Nixon died, but if you are right about US coins only being for the dead, which I think is true in the US, then Nixon had to have died before 1964.

I don't actually know what the rules are in the U.S., but in Canada the only way any specific person (other than the current monarch) is allowed to be on the money is if (s)he has been dead for at least 25 years.

When the coin changed to Nixon, I thought they'd make JFK live but not be POTUS.

That's the first thing that occurred to me, too.

Roddy McDowall replacing Dean Stockman in Quantum Leap too.

Dean Stockwell.