The marijuana is mine, officer, but the wind must have blown that cocaine into my car.
USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?
- Thread starter EJD1984
- Start date
Yeah, this is a strange sort of self-subverting argument that I see again and again when it comes to matters of continuity (and not just concerning Star Trek). People insist that "average viewers," "general audiences," "casual fans," don't know or care about details of continuity. And that's often put forward as if it's a reason to change things.
But it's not, of course. The logical upshot of it, if true, is that the "casuals" will be just as happy (or not) either way, so overall you'll please more people if you also please the fans by being true to continuity. In order to get to the conclusion they want, the apologists (for whatever continuity change or glitch is under discussion) have to do a 180 and insist that the "casuals" would notice and take exception, for some reason, if the show (or movie, or comic) were true to established continuity.
It doesn't add up. The redesigned Enterprise is "really close" to the original version, we're told, so fans shouldn't be bothered... but if that's the case, why not just use the real thing? Any "casual" viewers who would allegedly object to that (see it as corny, outdated, whatever) are just as likely to object to this one.
The proposition here is basically that casual fans only take notice or get annoyed about continuity when it's done carefully and respectfully, and otherwise they're agnostic. That makes no sense whatsoever. And it certainly doesn't seem to be supported by empirical evidence; I don't recall ever hearing about viewers rising up in indignation when "Relics" aired, or "Trials and Tribble-ations," or "Flashback," or "In A Mirror Darkly." On the contrary, those are often held up as favorite episodes.
Since I regard it as an artistic project, as well as a fictional one, I also respect the opportunity for artists to experiment.
I'm not looking forward to when people (could be anywhere, not just here) start complaining about why the Enterprise interiors don't look as colorful as in TOS. I'm betting a lot of people won't know, or remember, that the interiors weren't nearly as colorful in "The Cage", so having a lot of silver and grey will actually be the way it did look.
Brace yourself.
They implied at wonder-con that the Enterprise crew would have their own uniforms. But I can’t see them using the Cage ones as they’re not as iconic.
Given the rabidness of the fandom and the state of television these days I would say that it's very difficult, yes.
But closer by who's standard? In this very thread we've had fans tell us it's too different and others tell us it's too similar. None of these is entirely pleased by the result.
And if fans don't care, then why put any amount of effort trying to please any of the subset of the fandom? Why spend extra money for a tiny fraction of your audience, who as a whole won't be pleased anyway?
I don't think you thought this through, so I'd appreciate if you were more careful to call my argument "immediately nonsense".
You do understand that not everyone has the same opinion as you do, right?
That is not at all what I said. What I said is that it's impossible to please both the general audiences and the fans, primarily because you can't please the fans as a group anyway, so you should focus on the general audience, which is the vast majority of your viewers and the source of your money.
As for changes, if the general audience would find your classic designs silly, especially if you have contemporary designs which already don't fit with it, then updating the original is a smart move. There's nothing self-defeating about that. It's just good business.
I see you're new to Star Trek fandom, then.
We're rabid! Rabid I tell you!
Don't let one of us bite you or you'll have to get a whole bunch of nasty shots!Well after all, once you do a redesign, you pretty much open yourself up to nitpicking by anyone and everyone who thinks you (or they) could've done a better job of it. Stick to the original, and the only people who will complain will be those who never liked it in the first place.
And as for that...
Yeah, that proposition is the second (sudden whiplash!) aspect of the argument I was talking about: the casual viewers don't care about these kinds of details, except that they supposedly wouldn't like the classic designs. I don't buy it, and never have. It's just a small (rabid?) subset of the fandom projecting its own contrarian opinions onto a conveniently mute general audience.
It's like when a politician claims that "the American people" conveniently support whatever positions he happens to stand for. Ninety-nine times out of 100, he has no valid public opinion data to back that up. It's just empty rhetoric.
In fact, to the extent that we have any empirical evidence, it points in the opposite direction. The classic designs are considered classic for a reason. They've been used again and again, and have stood the test of time and remained popular.
I would prefer Pike and any 1701 Crew be wearing Cage uniforms or WNMHGB uniforms. Keep the DSC ones away!
Find it hard to believe that the 1701 needed a refit after the Cage. If they saw action in the war we never heard about it,and that refit doesn't look like repairs done (ingnoring the scaling up). Maybe someone inventive can come up with a reason it was so badly damaged that virtually a new ship had to be created .
Finally appreciate the Alexander Courage theme variant.IM$O it is not the Enterprise(TOS at least) without that theme.
Find it hard to believe that the 1701 needed a refit after the Cage. If they saw action in the war we never heard about it,and that refit doesn't look like repairs done (ingnoring the scaling up). Maybe someone inventive can come up with a reason it was so badly damaged that virtually a new ship had to be created .
Finally appreciate the Alexander Courage theme variant.IM$O it is not the Enterprise(TOS at least) without that theme.
I highly doubt that. I have absolutely no evidence for such an opinion, but the idea that "only people who hate the original design" will complain is being rather black and white.
In my experience, one of the first things people note about Star Trek productions is the ship design. Non-fans that I know (again, limited selection, limited information) pick up on odd design choices, like my mom with the USS Kelvin, or my wife with the TMP Enterprise.
Nonfans notice designs and effects as well.
They hinted at Wonder-Con that the Enterprise crew would be wearing different uniforms.
I'm curious. "Pick up" in what way?
(I'm sure on an individual level people do notice and have opinions about such things. Unless there's some large-scale systematic pattern to the kind of opinions they hold, though, they can't and shouldn't be used to justify any particular creative decisions.)
That depends. Is your point that some of their components are 100% the same? If so, then yes, they must be 100% the same.
Is your point that some of their components are between 40 and 80% the same with substantial differences in design, shape, texture and overall geometry? If so, then no, they need not be 100% the same.
Not that I know of. As far as I can tell, they started with one of the early (discarded) concepts for the Shenzhou and finished it independently. Kind of like Jeffries originally built the Klingon battlecruiser from an early discarded concept for the Enterprise, as did Sternbach for what became the Daedalus class and, eventually, the Pasteur.
But no, I don't think they actually "started with" the Shenzhou at all. I it started as one of the concept drawings for Shenzhou and evolved from there. The similarities are mainly owed to the fact that the same artists developed both ships at roughly the same time.
I won't be surprised if they wheel out the tri-coloured DSC prototypes (identical but for lack of bling) in mustard, light blue and grey as the USS Enterprise uniforms.
I would fuckin' love it.
Nah, you can see an andorian extra that forgot to wear her gloves and had non-blue hands.
They found it distracting.
And, yes, I know it isn't a large enough sample. But, it's more my rejection of "non fans don't notice."
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