Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"

[GeekUSACarl]

Yeah. I was a bit surprised in MU Georgiou's post-coital scene she was almost fully clothed honestly. Not that I expected full frontal, but they could have had her nude and dealt with it via sheets and camera angles.

I like that they are just leaving it simple to be germane to the story,

don't show it just cause you CAN.

But to echo romulan spy, George-yo was pretty clothed for that moment.

 

[Jaster]

It's interesting that SPACE's disclaimer during the episode indicated "nudity," but I don't recall seeing any of that. There were certainly some scantily-clad people and perhaps some clever angles hiding stuff though. Maybe I'll need to look closer when I rewatch on PVR.

There were definitely some arses on display with nothing but string on them. Probably counts from a ratings viewpoint.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

And women wearing pasties on their breasts. It was tame. God forbid the show have real nipples on display as opposed to fake nipples on an alien body.

I have been looking for people mentioning a major revelation made in this episode about Burnham. For such a central figure, this event is not being discussed. She witnessed the brutal slaying of her family by her Klingon raiders. She was psychologically damaged by this event, having PTSD. This pivotal event is brought up in the episode and is offered as one of the reasons she has conflicted feelings for Tyler/Voq. Yet, no one mentions it. Is this because how it was handled by the writers?

 

[donners22]

Geez, I don’t know what to think of this episode.

It had great moments (most involving Tilly!) but it got seriously mawkish at the end. It feels like they’re trying to placate who who hate the show, which is futile - they’ll take it as insincere, while fans of the show will be confused and annoyed.

I loved this season overall but I’m now nervous about where it’s going. I’d hate to have this turn into another generic Trek series.

 

[Gonzo]

I ended up giving it a 7/10, which really is NOT intended to be a slight, but more of an honest acknowledgement of some of the issues/flaws that crept in

There was so much I loved about it:

• MUGeorgiou was a hoot, and I'm glad that she's free to return in some manner in the future
• I liked the end of the Tyler and L'Rell arc...especially not trying to maintain them as fully-integrated members of the regular cast.
• The Orion Outpost /Embassay on Kronos was cool...very atmospheric and dingy
• No reset button, no trope-y sacrifices, etc.
• Burnham was good in this, and I was aligned with having her re-instated.
• Thrilled that neither Saru nor Burnham (nor Cornwell, nor PU Lorca, etc) was crowned Discovery's captain...and it seems apparent there will be a new leader next season. I thought that was definitely the right move.
• Burnham and Tyler's last scene was good...Latif is a good actor
• Sylvia Tilly is going to continue to be a fun character to watch evolve, and this episode really made that obvious
• Final scenes on Earth with Sarek, Amanda, and the crew being recognized felt very Star Trek...and there was a great sense of moving forward (probably far better done than Kirk's lines at the end of STID intended to do the same)
• Liked that they avoided a DS9 fleet battle with pew-pew and a bunch of nothing going on but expensive CGI.
• Watching the Enterprise enter the scene for the cliffhanger was very well done...total nerdgasm.

That said, this was a really messy wrap-up on other fronts, namely the Klingon War arc. Others have said it well, and I think it rings true that the post-Fuller writing staff was never 100% bought in on this arc, and as a result, it took a bit of a back-seat overall to some of the other things going on. And, quite honestly from my perspective, that's OK...because I was never interested in the Klingon War arc from a plot perspective as much as I was interested in the characters, the individual stories and relationships developing, Lorca, the MU, etc. with the war being nothing more as a backdrop for those tales.

But, I can't ignore that, despite my personal feelings, the wrap-up was really chicken wire and duct tape. There was a bit of nonsense I must acknowledge...

• Letting Georgiou go is awesome because Georgiou is awesome...but is absolutely ridiculous when looked at logically. She is a mass-murderer who damn near committed genocide.
• Having L'Rell take over the 24 Houses because she has control of a bomb...a bit of a stretch
  • Stretch that we'd give her the bomb
  • Stretch regarding the science and applicability of said bomb
  • Stretch that any of the Klingon leaders would believe her and/or not seek alternative means to get rid of her
• Having the Klingon fleet turn around within striking distance of Earth seemed ridiculous. Unless they thought it was truly the only way to save their homeworld. I'll concede that, but it was never made really clear (and I'm NOT a guy who wants everything spelled out, but I think that could have been good)
• The episode really needed to be 90 minutes min. Hell, a full 60 min would have been good. I still can't understand what the rationale is for rushing through some of these things in the streaming format. If they had spent a little more time on the endgame and on how to maneuver L'Rell into power (Voq lives...we've learned that the Humans aren't trying to assimilate us...they helped save our world from a rogue psychopath...etc), thus ending the war in a more believable way...it would have been so much better.

So...not the strongest individual episode of the season...but there was plenty to enjoy, and I really liked that they avoided certain predictions and tropes and ended with a bit of a "smaller scale" story. I just wish they had the time and capacity to flesh it out just a little more. Again, for me, at the end of the day...the prime measure seems to be "did I have fun?" and DSC has consistently delivered on that.

Must admit I liked the episode but I did fast forward through some of the boring sections, some of the earlier episodes were stronger in tone and delivery.

Really do wonder what the original plan was for the series and just how much bodging had to be done when the previous show runner was shown the door by CBS.

I would have expected the Klingons to not believe L'Rell and call her bluff, that of course couldn't happen as Qo'nos was never blown up,

I didn't mind the Starfleet navel gazing sections but did like MU Georgiou telling Burnham that she didn't follow through.

I see this season as a pure setup and so to me its not really important, there was no real need for the MU parts at all and they did feel a bit tacked on for the most part, Tyler/Voq could have given the necessary information rather than the Emperor.

I give it a 7/10 for this episode due to the rushed finish which felt a bit too pat for me and an 8.5/10 for the season.

Still its done now and we will have to wait until 2019 for more.

 

[eschaton]

I have been looking for people mentioning a major revelation made in this episode about Burnham. For such a central figure, this event is not being discussed. She witnessed the brutal slaying of her family by her Klingon raiders. She was psychologically damaged by this event, having PTSD. This pivotal event is brought up in the episode and is offered as one of the reasons she has conflicted feelings for Tyler/Voq. Yet, no one mentions it. Is this because how it was handled by the writers?

I dunno. I thought it was handled pretty well honestly. It helped that it was part of the last set of interactions she had with Tyler, which were the highlight of the show (never thought I'd say that!). It's a bit late in the series to have that sort of revelation however. Also, we had a general idea that bad shit went down when she was a kid. So while I thought, in an objective manner, her performance there was good, it didn't make me feel anything per se.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I have to check the dialogue but I think Amanda told Kirk they only haven't spoken as father and son for 18 years. I guess I'll have to put on "Journey to Babel" at some point between now and next season to check. Such a chore...

At the very least, they definitely shouldn't be buddy-buddy. Spock should be putting on a "More Vulcan Than Vulcan" show. In front of Sarek, anyway.

Yep its as father and son.
I can see Spock referring Sarek as "ambassador " and not acknowledging their relationship. Perhaps Michael will try to act as intermediary.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Was it just me, or in the academy hall from sT'09 where everyone got medals, were there not people in "Cage" style baby blue uniforms alongside crew in the DSC tracksuits? They seemed weirdly permanently out of focus (almost as if the room was CG because they probably didn't actually go to the Long Beach city hall)

 

[XCV330]

Was it just me, or in the academy hall from sT'09 where everyone got medals, were there not people in "Cage" style baby blue uniforms alongside crew in the DSC tracksuits? They seemed weirdly permanently out of focus (almost as if the room was CG because they probably didn't actually go to the Long Beach city hall)

I couldn't tell if they were Kelvin type uniforms or Cage type, but seemed like Cage style. I think they were blurred on purpose, but it was fun to sort-of see them.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I think they were out of focus because they copy-and-paste the background characters, especially so in the upper stands. Most viewers would not have noticed, with their attention focused on the foreground characters.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I don't see why we can't have both characterisations and a more serilaised story telling approach.

I'd love nothing more than to have both, when done well. Well, my ideal is probably actually semi-serialized with a mix of long and short story arcs and single episodes, but I'd still be pleased as punch with a Star Trek serial show with the quality of Stranger Things or Jessica Jones, etc. But this was not that. And while there's a lot of things to like here - in terms of the serialization specifically - the quality on display is so low that I have no faith that this will ever be that. So, yeah, unless we get a significant shake-up of some kind that can really amp up that quality, I do wish they'd just drop the serialization and stick to what they can actually do well.

 

[Nyotarules]

Pros
1. Enjoyable cartoon villain acting from Michelle Yeoh
2. I've come to like Tilly. I see how she became a badass in the mirror universe
3. Good character arc for Tylervoq
4. End scene and music was cool

Cons
1. Very contrived ending for the war. Klingon ships above Earth and no fighting? Yeah right
2. Love scene with tyler\burnham .great capacity for love, my foot has better chemistry with my butt.
3. So who is going to charge the Federation with conspiracy to commit genocidal war crimes? No wonder the organians step in 10 years later
4. Sarek was emoting, smiling ooc, maybe this is how he got into Amanda's pants lol
My conclusion for a season finale 6.5/10

P.s Saru deserves to be captain!

 

[CorporalClegg]

Yep its as father and son.
I can see Spock referring Sarek as "ambassador " and not acknowledging their relationship. Perhaps Michael will try to act as intermediary.

I really hope they don't shy away from doing something.

That rigid fealty to our Lord and Savior Holy Canon really drives me nuts. For all practical purposes, the number is completely arbitrary and essentially meant to be synonymous with "a really long time." Heck, for anyone knows DCF looked at her clock and saw it was ten after eight and wrote the numbers down.

And as I already said up-thread, it can easily be fixed by literally taking out half the word. 18 becomes eight and no one but a select few even notices. And it would be a real shame to if they missed out on what could potentially be a great story just because of that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

You know, for a Xenophobic species terribly afraid of human assimilation, the Klingons didn't seem to mind an Orion town on their home planet.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Don't expect to see Spock in season 2. I read an interview with Harbert where he is quoted as saying,

[W]e realize how incredible Leonard Nimoy and Zachary Quinto’s performances were and what [Star Trek movie director] J.J. Abrams and the original series were able to pull off with that character. Finding another actor that could even come close to what Leonard Nimoy did with the original portrayal, we’d never want to go down that road.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/02/11/st...inales-big-reveal-and-hint-at-season-2-story/

How xenophobic are the Klingons? In ten years, the Organians predicted a future where Humans and Klingons would become fast friends and work together. This implies that both civiliations have much in common. There are xenophobes on both sides; however, they are a minority.

 

[barryseymour]

As I have said repeatedly, he's not a fine and worthy character. Doug Jones is a terrific actor.

Ever since the 8th episode, Saru has been given basically zero development. His Kelpian nature has fallen to the background, and his relationship with Burnham has settled into cordial respect. But his role in the show has basically just transitioned into "the XO." 90% of his dialogue could have been said by anyone in the position of first officer. It's Jones which is elevating the material through performance, nothing less and nothing more.

I would respectfully disagree. Not about Jones, he's great - but about his development by the writers.

In the episode where Lorca was abducted by Klingons, Saru tried to figure out how to be a good captain. Essentially, he researched it on Wikipedia. He quickly realized that was not the way to figure it out, that leadership can't be learned from a chart. He struggled.

But by the time of the 13th episode, with Lorca gone and then revealed, and the need to attack a superior foe foremost, Saru stepped up big time. He inspired his crew to look for a better solution, denying the 'no-win scenario.' He was strong and assertive, a good leader. During the battle, he was quick to understand what was happening and quickly guide his bridge crew, motivating them to faster, better action without being harsh or clumsy. And when it came time to fire, the normally polite and timid Kelpian had no compunctions about yelling 'FIRE!' (Okay, that last is Jones, not necessarily the writers.) I loved that!

He has had a *little* development, which I think is a good thing. He needs a lot more.

I would add that throughout at lot of the discussion in this thread, Saru has been overlooked as well. We can't focus just on the humans, people!!

 

[GeekUSACarl]

You know, for a Xenophobic species terribly afraid of human assimilation, the Klingons didn't seem to mind an Orion town on their home planet.

Like that scene in American History X when derrick realizes the skin heads in prison are all against the blacks until they need drugs, then its "relax, its just business"

 

[137th Gebirg]

Don't expect to see Spock in season 2. I read an interview with Harbert where he is quoted as saying,

[W]e realize how incredible Leonard Nimoy and Zachary Quinto’s performances were and what [Star Trek movie director] J.J. Abrams and the original series were able to pull off with that character. Finding another actor that could even come close to what Leonard Nimoy did with the original portrayal, we’d never want to go down that road.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/02/11/st...inales-big-reveal-and-hint-at-season-2-story/

How xenophobic are the Klingons? In ten years, the Organians predicted a future where Humans and Klingons would become fast friends and work together. This implies that both civiliations have much in common. There are xenophobes on both sides; however, they are a minority.

I don't see why they can't use Quinto if they need to. He's not exclusively a movie actor. He did several seasons of American Horror Story, and before that 24 and, of course, Heroes. Seriously, why the hell not?

 

[CorporalClegg]

You know, for a Xenophobic species terribly afraid of human assimilation, the Klingons didn't seem to mind an Orion town on their home planet.

With Orions and Trill running around, all that was missing was a few Gorn and Qo'nos would have felt just like STO -- Not that there are a lot of people even on Qu'nos in STO.

 

[thribs]

I think it’s pretty obvious why the Enterprise showed up. Pike is annoyed that someone rather than him and his ship saved the day and so he’s come to rectify the problem.