Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"

[cbl1]

Rahul, post: 12362125, member: 65038
Other observations:

• Soooo... The age old franchise question: Who would win a fight, Federation or the klingons, was apparently already answered way before Kirk: Starfleet goes down like a lead balloon. Well, THAT's awkward... Also: Renders a lot of Kirk/Picard-negotiations with the klingons literally meaningless, since ALL of them lived from the Federation being at least equally a force as the klingons... Seriously, this klingon war arc was one. big. clusterfuck
  They had difficult time with the Klingon Cloak which has now been defeated making Starfleet more capable.
• So, they made Mirror Georgiou Captain? Why? What possible tactical advantage could be gained here? She's a leader and politician, not versed in ship-to-ship combat. And being from another universe certainly won't help in staying undercover. And don't tell me "Starfleet wouldn't do genocide, and they needed someone from outside for it". We know that's wrong: Admiral Cornwell could have done it. Or Admiral Cartwright.
  They knew they would have a hard time convincing other Starfleet officers to follow through on the mission where she will
  
• There's an Orion colony on Kronos? That seems as unlikely as a Chinatown in Moscow. I don't know. Is there a Chinatown in Moscow? They have to play nice with some neighbors - they do in TOS
• The whole Orion market had an aura of Schlock, I can't really describe... It felt much more like a sci-fi original production, or something from a one-off episode from Farscape or Stargate Atlantis, than what we know of Kronos... It was cool Blade Runner future hellhole great
• Count one up for mad, genocidal Admirals in Starfleet! She has lost it .. she's a half step away from Tantalus V.
• Sarek is a much more fatherly father-figure to Burnham than he ever was to Spock In his eyes he wronged Burnham and Spock wronged him. Very explainable although he showed to much emotion - which writers always have difficult with.
• I swear, if I see Tyler crying one! more! time! I'm going to flip a table. I really like Clem Fandango. But ever since the Ash/Voq-reveal, EVERY scene of him consistent of him crying his tears out in front of Burnham! I can't watch it anymore... Seriously the man is broken that's why he knows he has no place currently in starfleet
• On a related note: It feels like half the dialogue of the entire series is Burnham holding speeches - most often not even more than a more dramatized log-entry, but always waaaay to melodramatic. Enough! I agree but the season has been all about her arc of redemption and self study. Hopefully season 2 is more through eyes of whole cast.
• Soooo: L'Rell became Empress of the entire Empire by basically holding her entire homeworld hostage? SHE'S MIRROR HOSHI FROM ENTERPISE!!!It works
• Also: The last shot of the Enterprise? It was fine. No home-run. But could be worse. But, much like "prime universe", nothing more than a promise for the things to come, which could turn out as easily being broken, too. We will see more once we see the actual bridge set for the first time... Hopefully there is a good season 2 payoff as yes they can't back away now that they opened that bag of tricks

 

[zenophite]

Or she is so highly regarded no woman can take her place.

But would she be? I'm not sure holding everyone hostage from the Klingon perspective would make her a Paragon of Honor...

 

[eschaton]

Oh, and I realized although several of my hesitant predictions about the end of the season were wrong, I made one at the end of episode 13 that was correct - that not a single new "named Klingon" would be introduced. We only had 1 1/2 surviving Klingons who were introduced at the start of the show, and the last full Klingon (L'Rell) ends up being instrumental in "winning" the war because...uhh...she's the last remaining Klingon with a name, discounting a few high council extras.

 

[Mr Awe]

They didn’t play at all with the fact that the Emperor has the next 10 years of Prime knowledge in her head. She could probably use that to make herself rich.

Season 2. She is free, knows that Lorca found something interesting, and has knowledge about the PU's future. Should be interesting!

 

[Tuskin38]

Yes, totally agree. I like most of the decisions that the Discovery showrunners have made, but the Klingons--not so much.

Alex Kurtzman confirmed there would be Klingons next season, but they’re not the focus

 

[XCV330]

Alex Kurtzman confirmed there would be Klingons next season, but they’re not the focus

With TyVoq returning, that's one klingon automatically back.

 

[cooleddie74]

To be fair, Mark Lenard had a twinkle in his eye and a slight upturn to his mouth that frequently made him look like he was gently smiling about something he was thinking about at that given moment. Frain's performance might be closer to outright emotional outbursts than Lenard's was, but given that his own son was smiling and shouting at around this moment in history I think I can let the depiction of Sarek in this episode slide a little.

 

[Boomer359]

BTW. What's with Starfleet needing another captain for Discovery?

Saru was perfectly fine.

Probably hasn’t got enough experience yet. Plus he’s too tasty to be captain.

Saru is also a war criminal. He got promoted to commander, so Starfleet apparently doesn't care, but the dude bobby-trapped the body of a dead Klingon office at the Battle at the Binary Stars. Unless the Federation excised that part when they adopted the Geneva Conventions, that's a fairly cut and dry war crime.

I like the character and all, but as far as I'm concerned, any time it's asked "what about Saru," that's the unspoken answer.

 

[cooleddie74]

^
This again?

Really?

(*Sigh*)

 

[tomalak301]

The more I think about the Discovery finale the more bummed I am about it. It was not a good episode at all and I think the Enterprise showing up was more insulting than fanwank.

I remember people criticizing These Are the Voyages for crapping over the Enterprise crew and being too fanwanky. What is the difference between that and what happened on Discovery. This show can no longer stand on it's own and they already had issues with character development and universe building. Now they have brought in the Enterprise and all I could do was roll my eyes. I don't want Discovery to be fanwanky. I want it to stand on it's own and build on the trek legacy.

The rest of the episode wasn't much better. Burnham had a speech that would make the Gazelle speech look like a masterstroke, the Klingon War amounted to nothing, a healthy gay relationship didn't survive a season because the writers went to the bury your gays troupe (and they haven't even written season 2 yet so I am not giving the writers the benefit of the doubt), and Tilly was knocked out and then ok in the very next scene.

I should be excited for Discovery heading into season 2 and today I'm really not.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

That was... well... somewhat of a mess.
Sooo. It's possible to blow the entire klingon homeworld up with a tiny device that is easily smuggled onto the surface? Well, THAT'S convenient...

It only took one drop to destroy Vulcan.

 

[seigezunt]

I dunno, with that quality he Coulda gotten paid to write half of disco season 1

should definitely try to crowdsource a fan film based on that stellar idea.

Oh, gee.

 

[eschaton]

The more I think about the Discovery finale the more bummed I am about it. It was not a good episode at all and I think the Enterprise showing up was more insulting than fanwank.

I remember people criticizing These Are the Voyages for crapping over the Enterprise crew and being too fanwanky. What is the difference between that and what happened on Discovery. This show can no longer stand on it's own and they already had issues with character development and universe building. Now they have brought in the Enterprise and all I could do was roll my eyes. I don't want Discovery to be fanwanky. I want it to stand on it's own and build on the trek legacy.

The rest of the episode wasn't much better. Burnham had a speech that would make the Gazelle speech look like a masterstroke, the Klingon War amounted to nothing, a healthy gay relationship didn't survive a season because the writers went to the bury your gays troupe (and they haven't even written season 2 yet so I am not giving the writers the benefit of the doubt), and Tilly was knocked out and then ok in the very next scene.

I should be excited for Discovery heading into season 2 and today I'm really not.

I should be fair, and put in a short list of everything I liked about the episode last night:

1. Most of the outing on Qo'noS (minus the scenes around the temple/well). It would have been great to see something like this earlier in the season.
2. A great ending to Tyler's arc. Someone on another forum I'm on referred to him as "Captain Blandsome" initially, and I agreed at first. But the last few episodes Ash got a real character arc, and left the show being a much more interesting character than he started. His last scene with Burnham had the most convincing chemistry with her to date as well.
3. I dunno - seeing a Tellarite admiral?

 

[shapeshifter]

No reset button plus the Discoprise doesn't suck! Those are worth ten all by themselves. The rest was all gravy. 10+++++

 

[tomalak301]

I should be fair, and put in a short list of everything I liked about the episode last night:

1. Most of the outing on Qo'noS (minus the scenes around the temple/well. It would have been great to see something like this earlier in the season.
2. A great ending to Tyler's arc. Someone on another forum I'm on referred to him as "Captain Blandsome" initially, and I agreed at first. But the last few episodes Ash got a real character arc, and left the show being a much more interesting character than he started. His last scene with Burnham had the most convincing chemistry with her to date as well.
3. I dunno - seeing a Tellarite admiral?

I will say Tyler was the best thing about this episode .Latif and Chiffo did a great job .

I gave this episode a 5 last night and I think that is fair. There are great things about this show. Suru, who I didnt like before, is the one character that was developed well. Lorca before the mirror universe was great. Tilly was fun.

I just wish everything else was developed better. This series feels too small in scope and character.

 

[Mr Awe]

I dunno....It felt to me like a cheap shot at fan service. Plus it only added to the whole confusion with the redesigned 1701...what universe is this?

It is, and always has been, the Prime Universe. The creators are on record about this. It's just a visual reboot to appeal to modern audiences.

 

[Tuskin38]

Another Q&A on the Finale
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2018/02/12/star-trek-discovery-producers-on-that-crazy-season-1-finale

 

[Vger23]

I ended up giving it a 7/10, which really is NOT intended to be a slight, but more of an honest acknowledgement of some of the issues/flaws that crept in

There was so much I loved about it:

• MUGeorgiou was a hoot, and I'm glad that she's free to return in some manner in the future
• I liked the end of the Tyler and L'Rell arc...especially not trying to maintain them as fully-integrated members of the regular cast.
• The Orion Outpost /Embassay on Kronos was cool...very atmospheric and dingy
• No reset button, no trope-y sacrifices, etc.
• Burnham was good in this, and I was aligned with having her re-instated.
• Thrilled that neither Saru nor Burnham (nor Cornwell, nor PU Lorca, etc) was crowned Discovery's captain...and it seems apparent there will be a new leader next season. I thought that was definitely the right move.
• Burnham and Tyler's last scene was good...Latif is a good actor
• Sylvia Tilly is going to continue to be a fun character to watch evolve, and this episode really made that obvious
• Final scenes on Earth with Sarek, Amanda, and the crew being recognized felt very Star Trek...and there was a great sense of moving forward (probably far better done than Kirk's lines at the end of STID intended to do the same)
• Liked that they avoided a DS9 fleet battle with pew-pew and a bunch of nothing going on but expensive CGI.
• Watching the Enterprise enter the scene for the cliffhanger was very well done...total nerdgasm.

That said, this was a really messy wrap-up on other fronts, namely the Klingon War arc. Others have said it well, and I think it rings true that the post-Fuller writing staff was never 100% bought in on this arc, and as a result, it took a bit of a back-seat overall to some of the other things going on. And, quite honestly from my perspective, that's OK...because I was never interested in the Klingon War arc from a plot perspective as much as I was interested in the characters, the individual stories and relationships developing, Lorca, the MU, etc. with the war being nothing more as a backdrop for those tales.

But, I can't ignore that, despite my personal feelings, the wrap-up was really chicken wire and duct tape. There was a bit of nonsense I must acknowledge...

• Letting Georgiou go is awesome because Georgiou is awesome...but is absolutely ridiculous when looked at logically. She is a mass-murderer who damn near committed genocide.
• Having L'Rell take over the 24 Houses because she has control of a bomb...a bit of a stretch
  • Stretch that we'd give her the bomb
  • Stretch regarding the science and applicability of said bomb
  • Stretch that any of the Klingon leaders would believe her and/or not seek alternative means to get rid of her
• Having the Klingon fleet turn around within striking distance of Earth seemed ridiculous. Unless they thought it was truly the only way to save their homeworld. I'll concede that, but it was never made really clear (and I'm NOT a guy who wants everything spelled out, but I think that could have been good)
• The episode really needed to be 90 minutes min. Hell, a full 60 min would have been good. I still can't understand what the rationale is for rushing through some of these things in the streaming format. If they had spent a little more time on the endgame and on how to maneuver L'Rell into power (Voq lives...we've learned that the Humans aren't trying to assimilate us...they helped save our world from a rogue psychopath...etc), thus ending the war in a more believable way...it would have been so much better.

So...not the strongest individual episode of the season...but there was plenty to enjoy, and I really liked that they avoided certain predictions and tropes and ended with a bit of a "smaller scale" story. I just wish they had the time and capacity to flesh it out just a little more. Again, for me, at the end of the day...the prime measure seems to be "did I have fun?" and DSC has consistently delivered on that.

 

[cbl1]

But would she be? I'm not sure holding everyone hostage from the Klingon perspective would make her a Paragon of Honor...

Yea I have no idea

 

[Mr Awe]

I just like saying Loreal and George-yo in place of their real names, cause I'm easily amused I suppose.

My philosophy is that being easily amused is one of the keys to a happy life. You're always amused about something!