Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"

[Captain Killy]

The above is a hyperbolic exaggeration, imo.

It's obvious - and has been from day one - that Michael has flaws, makes mistakes, has bad or awkward relationships with some people, has bad reactions to situations which could have gone better. Struggles with her inner darkness and errors in judgment. Struggles to find a balance between Vulcan logic and human emotion. Is working on relating to the rest of the crew better.

But even if it were true that she's the bestest ever in a way that makes her seem larger than life, how does that differ from male protagonists like Kirk, or Spock, or Picard or other lead characters in previous franchises who have done extra-ordinary things because they are...wait for it...extra-ordinary. She is meant to be an exceptional person who stumbled and made a bad decision, then had to work to atone for her mistakes and re-earn the trust of those she ended up working with. We literally see her doing shit which leads to bad consequences because she's not perfect. But she does try to stick to her principles and has over the course of the season managed to find where the line is for herself in terms of Federation ideals and thus, became a mouthpiece for that, when others were faltering. Good for her.

The dreaded MS term always seems to get dragged out, in particular, for female protagonists who display some level of exceptionalism. How are they ANY MORE implausible than the gazillion hyper-competent men with tragic pasts or some other quirk of fate who have previously gotten to be big damn hero lead characters in sci fi or genre films or TV shows?

#Truth #Testify #RightOn

 

[picardjean-luc]

Alright, I'm not going to review this one in a traditional sense.

I definitely laughed at the resolution to the Klingon War, which has been such a meaningless storyline, devoid of emotion. It was almost on par with Starship Troopers. So much blood and death, yet ultimately no emotional impact on the audience. Very much the antithesis to how Ds9 handled their war.

Agreed on it. The weekly casualty list posted in front of Ten Forward was a reminder to everyone, viewers included, regarding the cost of the Dominion War in terms of Starfleet's casualties, etc. In contrast, 80,000 Starfleet officers and their families perished in Starbase 1 and all we got was Cornwell frozen out and Discovery speeding away in warp speed

Sidenote, something always struck me as odd about James Frain's portrayal of Sarek, and I think I figured out what it is. He constantly tends to look like he's smiling.... which is a very strange approach to this character.

Agreed. Casting an always smiling actor to play a Vulcan is a completely illogical choice

 

[Timo]

Because. I one else has surveyed and the emperor knew because she used them in same way to destroy qo’nos in mirror universe. She said qo’nos was a ball of cinder. She destroyed it in her universe the same way.

That's not what I meant. Of course the Emperor knew the truth, and the plot has her formulating a plan where she makes use of the truth to blow up the planet for good. And Sarek and Cornwell approve of that plan, so if they didn't know the truth before, they know it when deciding to give the Emperor the bomb.

The only question goes, why don't the Discovery heroes also know this truth? Tyler should know, and yet Tyler is part of the plan to exploit a dormant Qo'noS, a plan that won't work with an active Qo'noS.

I mean, how could Voq not know? Random Orions know. There's another cavity right next to the Capital, according to Starfleet intel and Tyler's Voq memories, so probably anybody living in the Capital ought to know. Voq knows a lot about the Homeworld, and has been to the Capital. So, why isn't Voq telling Tyler / why isn't Tyler telling Saru?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Longinus]

Well, it was not painful, and I was glad that they were able to resolve things peacefully. It was super anticlimatic though. The things were basically resolved by Burnham telling the Admiral to forgo the evil plan, Burnham telling the Emperor to forgo said evil plan and Burnham telling L'Rell to stop the war. And they all did what she wanted just like that. When she met Kol earlier she should have just told him to end the war, it would have resolved things much sooner.

5

 

[cultcross]

were basically resolved by Burnham telling the Admiral to forgo the evil plan, Burnham telling the Emperor to forgo said evil plan and Burnham telling L'Rell to stop the war. And they all did what she wanted just like that.

Wasn't quite that simple. She had either leverage, or something the other wanted, in each case. She didn't have that with Kol.
With Cornwell, she had exposed their secret plan, and had the leverage of the backup of the crew now they knew the truth. The same tactic, in essence, that Riker was ordered to use in Insurrection, expose the Federation's hypocrisy. Facing a mutiny (I know that's technically the wrong term) and with no means of stopping Discovery doing whatever she wanted, the Admiral had little other choice but to capitulate.
With Georgiou, she had what she wanted, and gave it to her. Georgiou doesn't give a crap about the war, so at that point she can calculate that with the plan scuppered, her freedom secured, and the planet she is on not blowing up, she'll probably come out better off.
With L'Rell, she is offered a choice of Leader of the Unified Empire, or prisoner of Starfleet. She got what she wanted from day one, unified Klingon houses, with the added sweetener of them being united under her and AshVoq as, erm, companion.

 

[Timo]

It's fun how a damp ending gets capped by a scene in rain.

The thing is, it was never much of a war to begin with. And they make that very explicit in the briefing where they observe the Klingons are making no strategic sense and basically aren't interested in winning. Of course they'd call it off at the slightest prompting, then - the Emperor is dead wrong about their bloodlust, failing to see it's just a lust for glory in this I'll-Paint-More-Starbases-Than-You contest.

Why was Earth being attacked? Because one House wanted to one-up another, and there was little else to be done at that point of the game, even though attacking Earth was apparently suicide (see all the defenses in place). Said House would have been the first to call it off, to be followed by the previous record holder and then the others.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Refuge]

Three.

 

[Refuge]

Well, it was not painful, and I was glad that they were able to resolve things peacefully. It was super anticlimatic though. The things were basically resolved by Burnham telling the Admiral to forgo the evil plan, Burnham telling the Emperor to forgo said evil plan and Burnham telling L'Rell to stop the war. And they all did what she wanted just like that. When she met Kol earlier she should have just told him to end the war, it would have resolved things much sooner.

5

Hey she got rewarded for it and made a tiresome speech.

 

[Starfury]

So, did I get that right? They had a Jump-Drive and the coordinates for the klingon homeworld, but not one of them had the Idea to jump there, abduct the klingon leadership, jump back to earth and leave their honored guests in the hands of the diplomats? Maybe with the words "The jump-drive you just witnessed is in mass-production, so if you wan't to survive this war you foolishly started, you better be ready for a peace-treaty"
No? Instead even the resident diplomat just said "Fuck it, let's nuke 'em"?

That's Star Trek now?

 

[Refuge]

That's Star Trek now?

It's the way it's written

 

[MacLeod]

So I'm just left hoping that next season they might back off the serialization and play to more simple, character driven stories - the kind of thing they've proven they can handle. Except... they probably won't do that, because DIS is selling itself on being the 'modern, serialized' Trek. So that's a real bummer.

I don't see why we can't have both characterisations and a more serilaised story telling approach.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Facing a mutiny (I know that's technically the wrong term) and with no means of stopping Discovery doing whatever she wanted, the Admiral had little other choice but to capitulate.

Capitulating is one thing, agreeing to a ridiculous plan to hand over a WMD to a prisoner they barely knew is something else. She should have capitulated alright, the war would have gotten worse, and we should have ended with ‘2 years later’, with a torn apart UFP.

With L'Rell, she is offered a choice of Leader of the Unified Empire, or prisoner of Starfleet. She got what she wanted from day one, unified Klingon houses, with the added sweetener of them being united under her and AshVoq as, erm, companion.

There was no leverage at all. L'Rell didn't have to anything to help the Federation or end the war, she didn't even agree to that before she was given the bomb. She was handed the power over the Klingon empire, with no promises, let alone any guarantees.

 

[cultcross]

Capitulating is one thing, agreeing to a ridiculous plan to hand over a WMD to a prisoner they barely knew is something else. She should have capitulated alright, the war would have gotten worse, and we should have ended with ‘2 years later’, with a torn apart UFP.

.... which would be why she agreed to it. The worst that L'Rell could do was blow up Qo'nos which was the plan in the first place. The other option from her perspective was saying 'cancel the whole thing', retrieve the detonator and go back to the war which they are apparently losing. Of course she would go for the option which, however it turned out, gave them a good chance of ending it.

There was no leverage at all. L'Rell didn't have to anything to help the Federation or end the war, she didn't even agree to that before she was given the bomb. She was handed the power over the Klingon empire, with no promises, let alone any guarantees.

But what she wants has been established all along. She wants Klingon unity, and under T'Kuvma saw war with the Federation as the way to achieve that - it clearly hasn't worked. So she can use this new power to achieve it instead. The only other thing she can do with it is blow up her own homeworld anyway. If she decides to carry on the war, well, we are only in the same boat we were before, and still have a jump drive to try again.

 

[lawman]

It's interesting that after all this time there are still Molor worshippers on Qo'nos. What happened to them in the time between Discovery and the 24th century? And could the long time of worshipping and the mentioned sacrifices and rituals mean that he wasn't a historical person but just another mythological being?

This struck me as well. And apparently they're not even particularly rare... a couple of random civilians were lighting a drink to Molor in the middle of a random town, and what they were doing was so commonplace that Voq (who had been part of the cult of Kahless) recognized it instantly.

I actually kinda like this — it indicates more diversity among Klingons than we've typically seen in the past. Pity we didn't get more of this sort of thing over the course of the season.[/QUOTE]

With Cornwell, she had exposed their secret plan, and had the leverage of the backup of the crew now they knew the truth. ... Facing a mutiny (I know that's technically the wrong term) and with no means of stopping Discovery doing whatever she wanted, the Admiral had little other choice but to capitulate.

Not sure I follow you here. At the time Burnham and company were holoconferencing with Burnham, Georgiou had already dropped the bomb, and had possession of the detonator. It would appear that all Cornwell needed to do to make the plan go off as intended was, well, nothing at all, except to wait a bit.

Okay, so maybe Georgiou needed to transport back to the ship before setting off the bomb in order to escape alive, and the Discovery crew could've intercepted her then and prevented her from triggering it. That would give them leverage over Cornwell. But if they could have done that, why not just wait a bit and do it, rather than cobbling together the last-ditch plan about Burnham confronting her in the cave... which, frankly, seemed highly unlikely to work, and only succeeded by dint of plot armor!... and which also involved setting her free, which would otherwise have been unnecessary?

 

[Turtletrekker]

And, again, I love that they keep giving Tilly all the swear words. However, this isn't the first time it's been said in Star Trek, as Data said "shit" in Generations.

 

[cultcross]

Not sure I follow you here. At the time Burnham and company were holoconferencing with Burnham, Georgiou had already dropped the bomb, and had possession of the detonator. It would appear that all Cornwell needed to do to make the plan go off as intended was, well, nothing at all.

It was made pretty clear to her that the crew weren't going to accept the plan, so if she had done nothing, she would assume the crew would act to prevent the device going off. Which they did, except with the Admiral's blessing they had another option to end the war, rather than just return to status quo.

 

[picardjean-luc]

So, did I get that right? They had a Jump-Drive and the coordinates for the klingon homeworld, but not one of them had the Idea to jump there, abduct the klingon leadership, jump back to earth and leave their honored guests in the hands of the diplomats? Maybe with the words "The jump-drive you just witnessed is in mass-production, so if you wan't to survive this war you foolishly started, you better be ready for a peace-treaty"
No? Instead even the resident diplomat just said "Fuck it, let's nuke 'em"?

That's Star Trek now?

Yes Sirree. The intelligent, think-outside-the-box, avoid violence at all cost Star Trek ala Roddenberry/TNG (basically what do you propose above) is long history. Today's Star Trek is a reenactment of Star Wars/Game of Thrones/BSG world where people resolve differences by waging more violence. It's a reality of the world we live in now, I'm afraid

 

[Gonzo]

This one is going to get a strong 8 from me. The best since the weird MU Sidequest begun. This was the sort of episode I wanted at the mid season break, our characters use the knowledge of Klingon's values from The Vulcan Hello but in a way that is consistent with their values. Plus, I loved (Ensign!) Tilly and Georgiou in this, Tyler had a good role, the bits on Qo'nos were well done and the ending was a nerdgasm of the highest order. The big E looked great, a really faithful but consistent update.

This seemed like the natural conclusion to the arc of the season, and the 5 episode jaunt to other things just seemed entirely irrelevant. Let's posit an alternative for a moment. What if Lorca hadn't been a mirror universe dude at all, but had been what we all thought, a man who was driven by his experiences to abandon the values of Starfleet and win the war at all costs. Put him in Georgiou's role in this episode and not only does the whole story make some kind of sense (doesn't require the plot contrivance of Starfleet putting the Terran Emporer in charge of the ship), the resolution works even better, because we've seen him build a relationship with Burnham. He wouldn't shoot her - Mirror!Georgiou definitely would. Then he can run off from Starfleet and be a recurring guest as Tyler, L'Rell and Mirror!Georgiou inevitably now will be. Great ending to his arc. But no, he has to be a Mirror evil guy because reasons and get unceremoniously stabbed. Perfect.

Yes, the bit where Burnham is arguing with Cornwall felt a bit too easy, but I could buy it in the context. We are looking at a whole ship of people who were brought up on the values that Burnham is talking about - they are pre-sold. If anything, they would need selling into going through with the plan, which was why they hid it in the first place. Whether or not we agree it is actually a sensible way to be, Starfleet guys are (for want of a better word) indoctrinated into this stuff from birth - none of them flinched at Georgiou's hardcore pacifist approach in BotBS, and so it is hardly surprising that they go along with Burnham's Kirk Speech here - it is familiar to them, much more so than war.

I could have done without the throne room scene at the end with the comically oversized medals. It seemed very self congratulatory, like the writers were just praising themselves through the Admiral's voice. But the outcomes I liked, appropriate promotions and the reinstatement of Burnham made some sense because she actually had undone the mistake she made in the first place, as she pointed out to Cornwall.

Can't wait to see Captain Pike - I wonder if this is a setup for a spin-off and whatever story they alluded to with the distress call is going to be its pilot..... hey, I can wish.

In short, generally very good episode, I just wish it had come 5 episodes sooner and without the Mirror Universe trappings.

Yeah the MU stuff did feel like it was tacked on after the fact, we just don't know what the original plan was and how much of it was thrown out when the changes at the top were made, we also don't know how long Jason Isaacs contract is for, he may not have wanted to do more than one season or that is all that they offered him.

It was pretty much a given that Burnham would be reinstated, due to how many ships /officers Starfleet have already lost and the fact she gave Starfleet an alternative to blowing up the Klingon home world, I would expect Saru to get his own command after this or serve under an admiral who is brought out of retirement to fill the empty captains chairs, mind you if we are going by time served as a first officer Burnham easily beats Saru in that regard.

I guess Burnham being promoted was unlikely though as the whole premise of the show is to see it through her eyes as a first officer and not captain, even so many promotions occur during war time and the immediate aftermath, would have expected a promotion for Burnham or Saru here, must admit the actor who plays Saru may not really want another season in the makeup chair as it takes considerable time each day to apply.

Looks like it could be Aiden Gillen as Pike, I also like how they set it so that it would not be Spock on the Enterprise at this time, saved them having to deal with that bit of tricky casting.

Will probably watch the episode tonight when I can sit down and give it my full attention.

 

[Bay17]

They need a new captain as a main character for season 2, to drive the narrative with Burnham

Which is why it won’t be Saru or Prime Lorca. Been done. They need someone new to maintain interest, especially of non-fan subscribers

 

[marsh8472]

Throwing the enterprise in at the end was a gimmick to grab people for the next season. Not telling us who the next captain would be was disappointing too, probably because they don't even know yet.