Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Wow. More hyperbole. It's not helping your case. Did Landry fawn over her? Did Stamets fawn over her? Or Detmer? Or Saru? Or Cornwell?
Any respect she got from them was earned due to her actions on Discovery as a capable crew-member and her strong will to complete whatever mission was given to her.
Sarek and Amanda love her as their daughter and are proud. But, as we have seen, there are lingering issues there, which needed to be addressed over time.
Tilly is a kind person who naturally gave Michael the benefit of the doubt and they became friends.
Tyler and Burnham were attracted to each other and became romantic with nudging from other crew members.
Mirror Lorca has a past history with her MU counterpart. Strong emotional bonds there, but different and weird because of the mirror thing. Same, obviously with Mirror Georgiou. There's nothing wrong with showing the Empress having real maternal instincts and an internal conflict about a person who is so like her beloved but treacherous daughter. How is that NOT a reason to hesitate?
Why is Burnham so important to some of these characters? Because ...and repeat after me...Michael Burnham is meant to be the lead character/protagonist. Like it or not, that's how this season was framed.
Lorca died because he was an arrogant prick who thought he had a destiny and thought with his dick. All it takes is one mistake in that verse, right? He presented his back to Georgiou whom he hadn't finished off. His own hubris and stupidity.
Plenty of people thought Burnham made the wrong decision at the BotBS. Including Michael herself. Starfleet also used her as a convenient scapegoat, until she did some things she approved of and then all was forgiven. Sound familiar? It's not like Kirk or Picard or other main characters haven't also been forgiven or lauded for their actions after the fact. The show has framed the first mutiny as a mistake which haunted her and made her second guess herself. Especially since Georgiou was also lost in that battle. Nothing has changed that.
Which enemies fawned over her? Kol toyed with and taunted her on the Ship of the Dead. Voq also insulted her and was happy to murder her when he got the chance in the MU. When did L'Rell start worshipping at the altar of Michael? Grudging respect for an enemy is one thing, but where's the evidence that Michael's enemies fawned over her as you claim.
Other crew members have behaved in exemplary fashion, even saved the day on occasion. It's not been all Michael, despite your assertions. Saru, Tilly and Stamets in particular have all had their moments to shine, or show great leadership or ingenuity and saved Discovery (or the universe for that matter) from terrible fates. More and more we're seeing the crew come together and work together successfully against the odds. Yes, Michael is a big part of that because DUH lead, but she's not been there for every win.
She's not the magical long lost sister of Spock. She is his elder sister because Sarek adopted her. Worf was also adopted by the way. She's one of many close relatives Spock never spoke about to his dear Enterprise crew until it was absolutely forced out of him. His wife T'Pring, Amanda, Sarek and Sybok all come to mind.
Speaking of siblings, Saru's relationship with Michael has been contentious on both sides, they admitted as much. She'd dismissed him, hadn't taken him seriously, and he'd envied her place as Georgiou's favorite. But through the course of the season they began to heal whatever rift was there. That they ended up supporting each other in the end was definite and well-earned progress. And yet he still feels no qualms in calling her out when needed, like concealing the Kelpian situation in the MU. When has he fawned over her? He admitted grudgingly that she was brilliant at her work, but that doesn't mean he thinks she's a perfect Starfleet officer or perfect friend and colleague.
There is nothing wrong with Burnham proving herself and showing her merit, showing why she earned those commander pips in the first place. That's what the best of the best are supposed to try to do in Starfleet. What makes it all the more poignant is that she had a big fall from grace and so had to work twice as hard to get back to where she'd been in the first place. Almost as if she had to discover where she truly belonged, or go on a journey of self-discovery or something...
dun dun dun!
Any respect she got from them was earned due to her actions on Discovery as a capable crew-member and her strong will to complete whatever mission was given to her.
Sarek and Amanda love her as their daughter and are proud. But, as we have seen, there are lingering issues there, which needed to be addressed over time.
Tilly is a kind person who naturally gave Michael the benefit of the doubt and they became friends.
Tyler and Burnham were attracted to each other and became romantic with nudging from other crew members.
Mirror Lorca has a past history with her MU counterpart. Strong emotional bonds there, but different and weird because of the mirror thing. Same, obviously with Mirror Georgiou. There's nothing wrong with showing the Empress having real maternal instincts and an internal conflict about a person who is so like her beloved but treacherous daughter. How is that NOT a reason to hesitate?
Why is Burnham so important to some of these characters? Because ...and repeat after me...Michael Burnham is meant to be the lead character/protagonist. Like it or not, that's how this season was framed.
Lorca died because he was an arrogant prick who thought he had a destiny and thought with his dick. All it takes is one mistake in that verse, right? He presented his back to Georgiou whom he hadn't finished off. His own hubris and stupidity.
Plenty of people thought Burnham made the wrong decision at the BotBS. Including Michael herself. Starfleet also used her as a convenient scapegoat, until she did some things she approved of and then all was forgiven. Sound familiar? It's not like Kirk or Picard or other main characters haven't also been forgiven or lauded for their actions after the fact. The show has framed the first mutiny as a mistake which haunted her and made her second guess herself. Especially since Georgiou was also lost in that battle. Nothing has changed that.
Which enemies fawned over her? Kol toyed with and taunted her on the Ship of the Dead. Voq also insulted her and was happy to murder her when he got the chance in the MU. When did L'Rell start worshipping at the altar of Michael? Grudging respect for an enemy is one thing, but where's the evidence that Michael's enemies fawned over her as you claim.
Other crew members have behaved in exemplary fashion, even saved the day on occasion. It's not been all Michael, despite your assertions. Saru, Tilly and Stamets in particular have all had their moments to shine, or show great leadership or ingenuity and saved Discovery (or the universe for that matter) from terrible fates. More and more we're seeing the crew come together and work together successfully against the odds. Yes, Michael is a big part of that because DUH lead, but she's not been there for every win.
She's not the magical long lost sister of Spock. She is his elder sister because Sarek adopted her. Worf was also adopted by the way. She's one of many close relatives Spock never spoke about to his dear Enterprise crew until it was absolutely forced out of him. His wife T'Pring, Amanda, Sarek and Sybok all come to mind.
Speaking of siblings, Saru's relationship with Michael has been contentious on both sides, they admitted as much. She'd dismissed him, hadn't taken him seriously, and he'd envied her place as Georgiou's favorite. But through the course of the season they began to heal whatever rift was there. That they ended up supporting each other in the end was definite and well-earned progress. And yet he still feels no qualms in calling her out when needed, like concealing the Kelpian situation in the MU. When has he fawned over her? He admitted grudgingly that she was brilliant at her work, but that doesn't mean he thinks she's a perfect Starfleet officer or perfect friend and colleague.
There is nothing wrong with Burnham proving herself and showing her merit, showing why she earned those commander pips in the first place. That's what the best of the best are supposed to try to do in Starfleet. What makes it all the more poignant is that she had a big fall from grace and so had to work twice as hard to get back to where she'd been in the first place. Almost as if she had to discover where she truly belonged, or go on a journey of self-discovery or something...
dun dun dun!
This episode pretty much confirmed for me my feeling that I had for while that the Show runners were not into the Klingon War arc and wanted it over as quickly as possible. The Klingon War seemed to be hold over from when the series was supposed to be an anthology and it felt like the Show runners who took over from Fuller couldn't get behind the war. I think they saw it as a way to explore Burnham's arc but ultimately there was no passion behind it and it felt half hearted. This episode really cemented that for me.
A few positive stand outs for me this episode were:
- Tilly. Mary Wiseman has great comic timing and she generally seems to have fun in the role. I like that the character is being used to lighten things up a bit and as a way for the show to take itself less seriously. I loved that Tilly got on the command track and is now an ensign.
- Georgiou, even though she was used really haphazardly, I like that there is the potential there for her to come back as a recurring villain. Michelle Yeoh was outstanding, and i was generally both terrified and slightly turned on whenever she was on screen
- Qo'nos was cool and I liked the Orion Embassy and it's blade runnery vibe.
- Even though it was super rushed, I did like that the war was resolved with words and not a massive fleet battle.
- The Enterprise. God damn she looked beautiful and even though her reveal felt a bit contrived, i feel like it was to represent a new direction for the series.
- The general feeling of lightness at the end of the episode knowing that war is now done, and Discovery is now free to live up to it's name.
Overall the episode mostly didn't work for me because it felt rushed. However it also felt at the end that the show runners were clearing the slate to give us something new and it felt hopeful.
I was going to rate it a 6 but it i'm giving it 7.5/10 redesigned Enterprise's, due to how it's got me feeling in relation to next year. The extra .5 is for the confirmation that Klingon dudes do in fact have two willy's.
A few positive stand outs for me this episode were:
- Tilly. Mary Wiseman has great comic timing and she generally seems to have fun in the role. I like that the character is being used to lighten things up a bit and as a way for the show to take itself less seriously. I loved that Tilly got on the command track and is now an ensign.
- Georgiou, even though she was used really haphazardly, I like that there is the potential there for her to come back as a recurring villain. Michelle Yeoh was outstanding, and i was generally both terrified and slightly turned on whenever she was on screen
- Qo'nos was cool and I liked the Orion Embassy and it's blade runnery vibe.
- Even though it was super rushed, I did like that the war was resolved with words and not a massive fleet battle.
- The Enterprise. God damn she looked beautiful and even though her reveal felt a bit contrived, i feel like it was to represent a new direction for the series.
- The general feeling of lightness at the end of the episode knowing that war is now done, and Discovery is now free to live up to it's name.
Overall the episode mostly didn't work for me because it felt rushed. However it also felt at the end that the show runners were clearing the slate to give us something new and it felt hopeful.
I was going to rate it a 6 but it i'm giving it 7.5/10 redesigned Enterprise's, due to how it's got me feeling in relation to next year. The extra .5 is for the confirmation that Klingon dudes do in fact have two willy's.
A
Amaris
Guest
Tilly had me in giggles several times in the finale, especially the "space whale" scene, which is why it's now my avatar.
Look, it was fine and all.
My initial thought is...now the writers get to write the show they want, instead of the one they inherited.
I really have no idea what to make of that ending though. I honestly don’t, haha.
My initial thought is...now the writers get to write the show they want, instead of the one they inherited.
I really have no idea what to make of that ending though. I honestly don’t, haha.
Mediocre but not insulting. Until the last reveal. Then my blood boils. What is this show? What is the purpose? Who is the crew?
This one is going to get a strong 8 from me. The best since the weird MU Sidequest begun. This was the sort of episode I wanted at the mid season break, our characters use the knowledge of Klingon's values from The Vulcan Hello but in a way that is consistent with their values. Plus, I loved (Ensign!) Tilly and Georgiou in this, Tyler had a good role, the bits on Qo'nos were well done and the ending was a nerdgasm of the highest order. The big E looked great, a really faithful but consistent update.
This seemed like the natural conclusion to the arc of the season, and the 5 episode jaunt to other things just seemed entirely irrelevant. Let's posit an alternative for a moment. What if Lorca hadn't been a mirror universe dude at all, but had been what we all thought, a man who was driven by his experiences to abandon the values of Starfleet and win the war at all costs. Put him in Georgiou's role in this episode and not only does the whole story make some kind of sense (doesn't require the plot contrivance of Starfleet putting the Terran Emporer in charge of the ship), the resolution works even better, because we've seen him build a relationship with Burnham. He wouldn't shoot her - Mirror!Georgiou definitely would. Then he can run off from Starfleet and be a recurring guest as Tyler, L'Rell and Mirror!Georgiou inevitably now will be. Great ending to his arc. But no, he has to be a Mirror evil guy because reasons and get unceremoniously stabbed. Perfect.
Yes, the bit where Burnham is arguing with Cornwall felt a bit too easy, but I could buy it in the context. We are looking at a whole ship of people who were brought up on the values that Burnham is talking about - they are pre-sold. If anything, they would need selling into going through with the plan, which was why they hid it in the first place. Whether or not we agree it is actually a sensible way to be, Starfleet guys are (for want of a better word) indoctrinated into this stuff from birth - none of them flinched at Georgiou's hardcore pacifist approach in BotBS, and so it is hardly surprising that they go along with Burnham's Kirk Speech here - it is familiar to them, much more so than war.
I could have done without the throne room scene at the end with the comically oversized medals. It seemed very self congratulatory, like the writers were just praising themselves through the Admiral's voice. But the outcomes I liked, appropriate promotions and the reinstatement of Burnham made some sense because she actually had undone the mistake she made in the first place, as she pointed out to Cornwall.
Can't wait to see Captain Pike - I wonder if this is a setup for a spin-off and whatever story they alluded to with the distress call is going to be its pilot..... hey, I can wish.
In short, generally very good episode, I just wish it had come 5 episodes sooner and without the Mirror Universe trappings.
This seemed like the natural conclusion to the arc of the season, and the 5 episode jaunt to other things just seemed entirely irrelevant. Let's posit an alternative for a moment. What if Lorca hadn't been a mirror universe dude at all, but had been what we all thought, a man who was driven by his experiences to abandon the values of Starfleet and win the war at all costs. Put him in Georgiou's role in this episode and not only does the whole story make some kind of sense (doesn't require the plot contrivance of Starfleet putting the Terran Emporer in charge of the ship), the resolution works even better, because we've seen him build a relationship with Burnham. He wouldn't shoot her - Mirror!Georgiou definitely would. Then he can run off from Starfleet and be a recurring guest as Tyler, L'Rell and Mirror!Georgiou inevitably now will be. Great ending to his arc. But no, he has to be a Mirror evil guy because reasons and get unceremoniously stabbed. Perfect.
Yes, the bit where Burnham is arguing with Cornwall felt a bit too easy, but I could buy it in the context. We are looking at a whole ship of people who were brought up on the values that Burnham is talking about - they are pre-sold. If anything, they would need selling into going through with the plan, which was why they hid it in the first place. Whether or not we agree it is actually a sensible way to be, Starfleet guys are (for want of a better word) indoctrinated into this stuff from birth - none of them flinched at Georgiou's hardcore pacifist approach in BotBS, and so it is hardly surprising that they go along with Burnham's Kirk Speech here - it is familiar to them, much more so than war.
I could have done without the throne room scene at the end with the comically oversized medals. It seemed very self congratulatory, like the writers were just praising themselves through the Admiral's voice. But the outcomes I liked, appropriate promotions and the reinstatement of Burnham made some sense because she actually had undone the mistake she made in the first place, as she pointed out to Cornwall.
Can't wait to see Captain Pike - I wonder if this is a setup for a spin-off and whatever story they alluded to with the distress call is going to be its pilot..... hey, I can wish.
In short, generally very good episode, I just wish it had come 5 episodes sooner and without the Mirror Universe trappings.
Agreed. Replacing Georgiou with a non-MU Lorca in this episode would have made it much better. Maybe that was what Fuller wanted to do.
Tilly had me in giggles several times in the finale, especially the "space whale" scene, which is why it's now my avatar.
Indeed. I loved Tilly's interactions with Georgiou and her getting high with Clint Howard.
So that pretty much confirmed my fears about where this was going.
I love these characters. I love the concepts and the ideas that were being set up this season. There have been plenty of honestly great moments. I even agree that this was probably SMG's best performance so far and that she had some great material here. But this writers room has no clue whatsoever how to write serialized drama. Nothing about this storyline has made any sense ever since they started trying to pull the story together and make a resolution. It's like they just got tired of writing this story and said 'and then some weird shit happened and then everyone lived happily ever after'. This was easily the worst episode of the season (admittedly in part due to the higher standards of being a finale).
I try so hard to believe its just the behind the scenes issues which caused all this. But Fuller was gone before anything was shot. The writers had time to change things, at least in small ways, and many issues could have been fixed before the cameras started rolling. So I'm just left hoping that next season they might back off the serialization and play to more simple, character driven stories - the kind of thing they've proven they can handle. Except... they probably won't do that, because DIS is selling itself on being the 'modern, serialized' Trek. So that's a real bummer.
What else is there to say, then?
I loved Tilly reaffirming her friendship with Michael - that relationship fell by the wayside halfway through the season and its good that the writers haven't forgotten it.
I'm sad Saru apparently won't be the new captain, though it is realistically understandable that less than a year as first officer and a few days as acting captain wouldn't be considered enough experience. I hope the new captain is completely different from Lorca - I really like the idea of it being Pike's Number One (which would go a long way to redeeming this idiotic 'cliffhanger', even though officer transfer shouldn't be an emergency) or a Vulcan (which could provide good material for Burnham to play off of). Or it could be actual Prime Lorca - I'd be ok with that, too. But I doubt Prime Lorce will ever be anything more than a recurring character (when he inevitably shows up). Honestly I just wish we had the real Georgiou back. If there was ever a show that absolutely should've used a reset finale, this is the one, especially if the writers were backed into a corner writing an arc they couldn't figure out due to offscreen shakeups.
I love these characters. I love the concepts and the ideas that were being set up this season. There have been plenty of honestly great moments. I even agree that this was probably SMG's best performance so far and that she had some great material here. But this writers room has no clue whatsoever how to write serialized drama. Nothing about this storyline has made any sense ever since they started trying to pull the story together and make a resolution. It's like they just got tired of writing this story and said 'and then some weird shit happened and then everyone lived happily ever after'. This was easily the worst episode of the season (admittedly in part due to the higher standards of being a finale).
I try so hard to believe its just the behind the scenes issues which caused all this. But Fuller was gone before anything was shot. The writers had time to change things, at least in small ways, and many issues could have been fixed before the cameras started rolling. So I'm just left hoping that next season they might back off the serialization and play to more simple, character driven stories - the kind of thing they've proven they can handle. Except... they probably won't do that, because DIS is selling itself on being the 'modern, serialized' Trek. So that's a real bummer.
What else is there to say, then?
I loved Tilly reaffirming her friendship with Michael - that relationship fell by the wayside halfway through the season and its good that the writers haven't forgotten it.
I'm sad Saru apparently won't be the new captain, though it is realistically understandable that less than a year as first officer and a few days as acting captain wouldn't be considered enough experience. I hope the new captain is completely different from Lorca - I really like the idea of it being Pike's Number One (which would go a long way to redeeming this idiotic 'cliffhanger', even though officer transfer shouldn't be an emergency) or a Vulcan (which could provide good material for Burnham to play off of). Or it could be actual Prime Lorca - I'd be ok with that, too. But I doubt Prime Lorce will ever be anything more than a recurring character (when he inevitably shows up). Honestly I just wish we had the real Georgiou back. If there was ever a show that absolutely should've used a reset finale, this is the one, especially if the writers were backed into a corner writing an arc they couldn't figure out due to offscreen shakeups.
and her straight Killy hair was back after realising Georgiou's identity. I loved how she Terran saluted and Burnham's tone of voice when she then said "Don't do that"
Awful. Complete garbage. Incredibly lazy writing. Atrocious dialog.
At least they wrapped up some of the show's story threads which gives them a clean slate heading into season 2. Although I doubt they'll use the clean slate for much of anything. Considering the Enterprise just showed up I'm sure lots of fan service and re-hashes are coming our way.
I can say with a reasonable degree of confidence that season 2 will be the last season of Star Trek "Discovery". Good riddance.
At least they wrapped up some of the show's story threads which gives them a clean slate heading into season 2. Although I doubt they'll use the clean slate for much of anything. Considering the Enterprise just showed up I'm sure lots of fan service and re-hashes are coming our way.
I can say with a reasonable degree of confidence that season 2 will be the last season of Star Trek "Discovery". Good riddance.
Tilly is one of the reasons for me staying with the show. I like the character. She has been consistent since her introduction.
johnnjm22
Why do you believe "Discovery" will only have two seasons? Even a show as wretched as "Enterprise" had two more seasons past its first two seasons.
johnnjm22
Why do you believe "Discovery" will only have two seasons? Even a show as wretched as "Enterprise" had two more seasons past its first two seasons.
I don't think so. The producers have said that the original Bryan Fuller arc included MU and they would have gone to MU sooner, but Lorca was not from MU. In this regard the Fuller departure hurt the show. Lorca not being from MU would have been much better. And if they got out of MU sooner then more than 2 episodes would have been used to wrap up the war arc. If they had discovered the anti-cloak technology after returning from MU, and that being what turned the tides of war (instead of the Volcano bomb) would have been more satisfying.
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IIRC Isaacs in an interview said he needed to know more about the backstory of his character and they felt obliged to tell him he was MU, implying that he was casted after they included the MU arc. Of course a lot of what Isaacs says in interviews is, *ahem* true only from a certain point of view...
It had some logical issues, but all in all i really liked the season finale. And i'm really glad Burnham was pardonned at the end. Kirk got away with some bigger stuff if you think about Star Trek III for example...
I love the shot of the Enterprise at the end and i wonder who will be the new Captain.
Some observations and questions:
- It's interesting that after all this time there are still Molor worshippers on Qo'nos. What happened to them in the time between Discovery and the 24th century? And could the long time of worshipping and the mentioned sacrifices and rituals mean that he wasn't a historical person but just another mythological being? Maybe the last of the klingon gods, who were said to be killed by the Klingons?
- Was the scene with L'Rell happening in another building than both the council chamber in Enterprise and the 24th century version or was it one of those with a visual retconn?
- Does anyone else think that Ash is meant to be the missing link between the Discovery Klingons and the TOS ones?
- Was Paris meant to look similar in the 24th century or should we think what we've seen of the city in "We'll always have Paris" and "Homefront" is what the city looked like at this time?
I love the shot of the Enterprise at the end and i wonder who will be the new Captain.
Some observations and questions:
- It's interesting that after all this time there are still Molor worshippers on Qo'nos. What happened to them in the time between Discovery and the 24th century? And could the long time of worshipping and the mentioned sacrifices and rituals mean that he wasn't a historical person but just another mythological being? Maybe the last of the klingon gods, who were said to be killed by the Klingons?
- Was the scene with L'Rell happening in another building than both the council chamber in Enterprise and the 24th century version or was it one of those with a visual retconn?
- Does anyone else think that Ash is meant to be the missing link between the Discovery Klingons and the TOS ones?
- Was Paris meant to look similar in the 24th century or should we think what we've seen of the city in "We'll always have Paris" and "Homefront" is what the city looked like at this time?
I think, that like with San Francisco in the JJverse, they changed the look of the city.
What was it with the Earth in this episode? I have never seen in Star Trek before where the Earth was "shown on its side", with north pointing left and south pointing right.
What was it with the Earth in this episode? I have never seen in Star Trek before where the Earth was "shown on its side", with north pointing left and south pointing right.
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