Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, The War Within"

[Lakenheath 72]

One of the reasons the North Vietnamese won the war was that they studied our culture thoroughly. Having an understanding of our culture, they arrived at the conclusion that they could not win a war by conventional means. They could win the war though through attrition, because the American population would turn against the war if they could be convinced the war was unwinnable. By contrast, the American military and government did not believe it was necessary to understand the Vietnamese culture, so this is one of the reaons we lost.

Even if the Klingons were using unconventional tactics against the Federation, the citizenry of the Federation would go from fear to anger and defiance. The Klingons would be fighing a population which would be more resistant to them. It feels that the Federation government, and not its citizens, were losing the will to fight.

 

[XCV330]

Even if the Klingons were using unconventional tactics against the Federation, the citizenry of the Federation would go from fear to anger and defiance. The Klingons would be fighing a population which would be more resistant to them. It feels that the Federation government, and not its citizens, were losing the will to fight.

The war is 9 months. The Vietnamese were on the tail end of a VERY long period of dealing with foreign incursions.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Yep. 20 years.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Again, I'm not a student of military history - it bores me. But I know enough to realize that political division is a weakness that any skilled tactician can exploit. Within the human context, this has been known at least since Sun Tzu.

The Klingons are not divided when it comes to how they view the Federation which is as an existential threat to their way of life. The 24 houses may not like each other but they like the Federation even less. This gives them a unity against a common enemy. That is an incredibly powerful motivator and unlikely to be broken by any federation attempts to sow discord amongst the houses.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It would seem logical that everyone there would know about MU Georgiou, but Discovery plays fast and loose with plot points like this, so I guess that knowledge was just restricted to Saru and Burnham (though you think in the MU it would have been critical for Saru to inform his crew who they would be dealing with once they realized who Lorca was...but again, fast and loose with logic here on Discovery).

Saru never knew who the emperor was until she appeared in the transporter room. Burnham never mentioned it in their communications (for reason I would think are rather obvious, if not flattering).

 

[Lakenheath 72]

If the Federation, and by extension, the Starfleet were as strong as we are led to believe, I would find it hard to believe that all Klingon houses would be united in their passion to destroy the Federation. I would believe that there would be some houses who would ally with the Federation so as to destroy rival houses. Sadly, that is real world politics and television shows are not good at demonstrating real world politics.

About the North Vietnamese government, they changed their tactics when it became clear the Americans were becoming more invested in the war. They did their study of America in 1963. They adapted to the changing military situation.

From watching Discovery, it's clear that the Federation did not have an interest in learning about the Klingon culture. Maybe if they had taken the time to learn the culture, they would not be where they are after fifteen months or more of war with them.

We know from TOS that the Klingons did occupy some planets. Kirk visited those planets.

KIRK: Gentlemen, I have seen what the Klingons do to planets like yours. They are organised into vast slave labour camps. No freedoms whatsoever. Your goods will be confiscated. Hostages taken and killed, your leaders confined. You'd be far better off on a penal planet. Infinitely better off.

"Errand of Mercy"

 

[Stephen!]

Since they've lost a lot of ships, maybe the Defiant is destroyed now, so it will never end up in the mirror universe in the first place, creating a temporal paradox.

 

[Tuskin38]

Since they've lost a lot of ships, maybe the Defiant is destroyed now, so it will never end up in the mirror universe in the first place, creating a temporal paradox.

No

 

[137th Gebirg]

Agreed. Since she's played a pivotal role in no less than three series now (probably the most of any other vessel in Trek history), unless there is on-screen dialogue to designate otherwise, the Defiant is alive and well and warping around the quadrant normally.

 

[cooleddie74]

Twelve Constitution-class starships were built around this time. Twelve are still in service during the first season of TOS. None of them went down in the Klingon War, and that's assuming a big reset button doesn't prevent most of the war from ever happening in the first place.

 

[Longinus]

Twelve Constitution-class starships were built around this time. Twelve are still in service during the first season of TOS. None of them went down in the Klingon War, and that's assuming a big reset button doesn't prevent most of the war from ever happening in the first place.

We don't know how many were built. We just know that during in mid 2260's there were twelve. There may have been more before or later.

 

[cooleddie74]

Probably true. But it would be nice to think that the Connies were so badass that even suicide bomber Klingons couldn't take them out.

You can keep your spore drive ships. We've got Pit Bulls.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Yep. 20 years.

I only tend to know that because of M*A*S*H, but it was a lot longer a conflict than most people realize.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Yeah they were at war with the French for a very long time before we got involved, as they were a French colony and fighting for their independence. Before that they actually helped US fight against the Japanese during WWII and we repaid their assistance by invading them after the French cried in their cups asking us for help. If ever there was a war that never should've happened, that was it. Korea was bad enough, ending up in a "tie", but Nam was just bad policy from top to bottom. That whole era of proxy wars and the blood shed from them are all laid at John Foster Dulles' doorstep. IIRC, during the Eisenhower administration, he was the primary architect of the "Domino Theory", which became our main Cold War doctrine - if one nation fell to Communism, all other surrounding nations in the region would also necessarily fall, mandating our immediate intervention. It urks me they named one of our nation's largest airports after him.

 

[XCV330]

I only tend to know that because of M*A*S*H, but it was a lot longer a conflict than most people realize.

Kind of morphed from the Japanese occupation and resistance to the Viet Minh/France conflict then to the next war without much in the way of pauses.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

America did a lot of stupid things in its war against communism. We are still living with the consequences. Of course, there is Vietnam. Then there is Iran, where a joint Anglo-American operation, designed to protect the interests of a petroleum company, resulted in a democratically elected leader being forced to leave and the restoration of a monarchy favorable to Anglo-American business interests. This lead to the Iranian revolution decades later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

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Then, there is the time when we decided to join on the side fighting the Red Army in the Russian Civil War. We were not the only country to get involved. There were the Brits and the Japanese, and maybe a few others. This little act created a belief in the Soviet Union, and now Russia, that the West is a threat. The cyber attacks on our election system is a part of a series of events which began here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War

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[Gonzo]

Since they've lost a lot of ships, maybe the Defiant is destroyed now, so it will never end up in the mirror universe in the first place, creating a temporal paradox.

I would not put it past them at all, they did say that all the inconsistencies would be addressed at some point.

A gigantic paradox would certainly do it.

 

[unimatrix7]

Can I just say again that I love Jayne Brook?

 

[Nyotarules]

I only tend to know that because of M*A*S*H, but it was a lot longer a conflict than most people realize.

I thought M*A*S*H was about the Korean war?

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I thought M*A*S*H was about the Korean war?

It definitely was. But during one of the OR sessions, I don't remember which season, the PA announcer mentions the French vs. Vietnamese conflict. This would've been before the start of the war proper in 1955 with the Korean war going on from 1950-1953.