Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, The War Within"

[Longinus]

It is not unbelievable that the Klingons could win a war against the Federation, it is however rather unbelievable that they could do it this fast while apparently not having a central organisation at all. The Federation is not fighting the Klingon Empire, they're fighting a bunch of disorganised raiders.

 

[eschaton]

It is not unbelievable that the Klingons could win a war against the Federation, it is however rather unbelievable that they could do it this fast while apparently not having a central organisation at all. The Federation is not fighting the Klingon Empire, they're fighting a bunch of disorganised raiders.

Yeah. The only analogue I can think of is how Rome was defeated by squabbling barbarian hordes. And that took centuries of decline and corruption. I don't think the writers intended to analogize the UFP to late-period Rome.

 

[Silversmok3]

Yeah. The only analogue I can think of is how Rome was defeated by squabbling barbarian hordes. And that took centuries of decline and corruption. I don't think the writers intend to analogize The UFP to late-period Rome.

In “Yesterday’s Enterprise” ,it took 20 years of war with a united Klingon empire before Starfleet was on the brink of defeat.

9 months? Not. I held hopes after seeing the first episode of the USS Discovery’s big secret being Genesis- which would be a formidable enough strategic power that 24 squabbling Klingon tribes could put aside their differences and fight.

 

[XCV330]

It is not unbelievable that the Klingons could win a war against the Federation, it is however rather unbelievable that they could do it this fast while apparently not having a central organisation at all. The Federation is not fighting the Klingon Empire, they're fighting a bunch of disorganised raiders.

Who were cloaked.

 

[Longinus]

Who were cloaked.

As noted earlier, in 'Yesterday's Enterprise' it took united Klingon Empire two decades to bring the Federation on the brink of defeat, and those Klingons had the cloak too. Cloak is not such a game changer, both Klingon and Romulans will have it in the future.

 

[Push The Button]

Kind of looks dark enough to be black under most kinds of lighting but I could see where some might think it's dark gray. But yes, Michael's was definitely more of a subdued matte finish vs the high-gloss of the security detail. Not entirely sure why she had an insignia at all during her incarceration, to be honest.

If you blink fast enough, this sure looks like Michael in a Cage-era Starfleet tunic.

 

[Push The Button]

The emperors political situation is unique to say the least. She’s definitely a despot: but given the bad strategic situation Starfleet is in she’s a necessary despot. Not only is her “technical advice” a material necessity , putting her on trial involves disclosing classified information about the Discovery and the Mirror Universe,all of which would be public record. Then again she’s a despot who’s killed a LOT of people and deserves a long stay in a jail cell; Burnam did time for her mutiny and half a planetload of people didn’t die in the process.




They may not know where the Emperor came from firsthand,but they know Captain Georgioiu is dead ,they just came from the Mirror Universe, and this woman who looks a LOT like the deceased captain of the USS Shenzhou just walked on the bridge.Doesn’t take a ship full of science geniuses to do the math on what that means.

This is essentially Operation Paperclip, where you hold your nose and make an unholy deal with vile people because you need something that only they can provide.

 

[John Cooley]

If you blink fast enough, this sure looks like Michael in a Cage-era Starfleet tunic.

That’s her prison jumpsuit.

 

[Push The Button]

That’s her prison jumpsuit.

Yes I know it is, but the mustard color and Starfleet delta jumped out at me for some reason this time.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah. The only analogue I can think of is how Rome was defeated by squabbling barbarian hordes. And that took centuries of decline and corruption. I don't think the writers intended to analogize the UFP to late-period Rome.

I don't think the writers thought this through. At all.

I think they knew they had just one more episode left in the season, they wanted to wrap up the Klingon War arc and had to come up with something for the last two episodes that sounded dire and dramatic.

 

[Syd Shanshala]

Look it’s beleivable if you come at it with the fact that only 100 years prior humans were just warp 5 capable and had literally no clue what was out there, whereas Klingons had been out in the quadrant for a much longer time. Better ships, better weapons, cloaking tech, the list goes on and on. ISIS are essentially operating the same way and they are wreaking havoc across the Middle East. Maybe by the time of next gen the war would go on 20 years

 

[Grendelsbayne]

As noted earlier, in 'Yesterday's Enterprise' it took united Klingon Empire two decades to bring the Federation on the brink of defeat, and those Klingons had the cloak too. Cloak is not such a game changer, both Klingon and Romulans will have it in the future.

Except a cloak is a game changer when its never been seen before and has no known counter. Starfleet in the 24th century has a whole century of experience with the cloak and exactly what it can and can't do - that information is invaluable to forming the right tactics to deal with it. Not to mention all the different technological solutions that have been found at various times to be at least partially effective against it.

Meanwhile, Starfleet in DSC (like many, many historical militaries) is still fighting last decade's war, using all their old standard battle tactics despite the fact that many of those tactics have been fundamentally invalidated by this brand new, highly disruptive technology.

 

[Silversmok3]

Except a cloak is a game changer when its never been seen before and has no known counter. Starfleet in the 24th century has a whole century of experience with the cloak and exactly what it can and can't do - that information is invaluable to forming the right tactics to deal with it. Not to mention all the different technological solutions that have been found at various times to be at least partially effective against it.

Meanwhile, Starfleet in DSC (like many, many historical militaries) is still fighting last decade's war, using all their old standard battle tactics despite the fact that many of those tactics have been fundamentally invalidated by this brand new, highly disruptive technology.

Bunk. Kirk did just fine against a cloaked Romulan Warbird in that delightful TOS episode “Balance of Terror”.

If that’s too old school,note that in ST-III Kirk took down a cloaked Bird of Prey -and in a tactically unprepared ship at that.

Did Shinzons cloak let him walk over Picard in Nemesis? Nope. And Geordi said that one was *perfect*.

A cloak offers an advantage,but it’s not infallible.Any war fighting tech can be countered with tactics (see Kirk,et al).

Of course you’d never know that watching Discovery,because the writers’ knowledge of tactics and war fighting is wack.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Bunk. Kirk did just fine against a cloaked Romulan Warbird in that delightful TOS episode “Balance of Terror”.

If that’s too old school,note that in ST-III Kirk took down a cloaked Bird of Prey -and in a tactically unprepared ship at that.

Did Shinzons cloak let him walk over Picard in Nemesis? Nope. And Geordi said that one was *perfect*.

A cloak offers an advantage,but it’s not infallible.Any war fighting tech can be countered with tactics (see Kirk,et al).

Of course you’d never know that watching Discovery,because the writers’ knowledge of tactics and war fighting is wack.

The Balance of Terror cloak was inferior - the ship was easily tracked by the Enterprise throughout the entire episode. And in ST III, Kirk tricked the enemy into exposing themselves. The cloak played no part in the climax of the fight, and the only reason it didn't lead to complete victory for the Klingons is because the Klingons themselves stopped firing.

As for the 24th century crews countering with tactics, that's exactly what I said. They understand the basic principles of cloaking. They have a century of tactical experience with cloaks that they can draw on. Those tactics haven't been invented yet in DSC, and it is in fact very normal for a military organization to be very slow to adapt its tactics to new technology.

 

[Silversmok3]

Except

The Balance of Terror cloak was inferior - the ship was easily tracked by the Enterprise throughout the entire episode. And in ST III, Kirk tricked the enemy into exposing themselves. The cloak played no part in the climax of the fight, and the only reason it didn't lead to complete victory for the Klingons is because the Klingons themselves stopped firing.

As for the 24th century crews countering with tactics, that's exactly what I said. They understand the basic principles of cloaking. They have a century of tactical experience with cloaks that they can draw on. Those tactics haven't been invented yet in DSC, and it is in fact very normal for a military organization to be very slow to adapt its tactics to new technology.

Except the USS Discovery cracked the
cloak tech fairly early in the war.

Theres real world precedent for this- when the Nazis made the Enigma, Alan Turing built a computer to crack it.

People and tactics win wars,not technology alone. On that topic,that 24 separate armies are a major strategic problem for the Klingons. What happens when warbirds from House A target the same place as House B? Who gives the orders? Who sets the strategy?

In the TOS and TNG series the Klingons had an organized military. In Discovery the clans can barely stand a joint conference call with Tkuvma . How the hell can 24 different armies whose leadership can’t even communicate function as a fighting unit ? Forget a shooting war- all you’d need is for Section 31 to plant a rumor that House As wife is banging House Bs leader.

After that, all the Federation need do is park some phaser cannons on the border and get the popcorn. Hell ,maybe Starfleet backs a singular clan leader friendly to their interests as a proxy against other 23 to make sure “their guy” comes out on top at the end, which is a strategy that’s both realistic and would offer legit reason for someone like Tkuvma to rally against the Federation to open war. That would be a way cooler conflict to watch then this “9 months to defeat” BS...

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Except


Except the USS Discovery cracked the
cloak tech fairly early in the war.

Theres real world precedent for this- when the Nazis made the Enigma, Alan Turing built a computer to crack it.

People and tactics win wars,not technology alone. On that topic,that 24 separate armies are a major strategic problem for the Klingons. What happens when warbirds from House A target the same place as House B? Who gives the orders? Who sets the strategy?

In the TOS and TNG series the Klingons had an organized military. In Discovery the clans can barely stand a joint conference call with Tkuvma . How the hell can 24 different armies whose leadership can’t even communicate function as a fighting unit ? Forget a shooting war- all you’d need is for Section 31 to plant a rumor that House As wife is banging House Bs leader.

After that, all the Federation need do is park some phaser cannons on the border and get the popcorn. Hell ,maybe Starfleet backs a singular clan leader friendly to their interests as a proxy against other 23 to make sure “their guy” comes out on top at the end, which is a strategy that’s both realistic and would offer legit reason for someone like Tkuvma to rally against the Federation to open war. That would be a way cooler conflict to watch then this “9 months to defeat” BS...

Discovery didn't crack the cloaking tech early in the war. Discovery's anti-cloak information was lost with Discovery when Lorca sent them all to the MU. It's literally only just now arrived back at starfleet.

And the Klingons don't need central command to send invisible ships on suicide missions, which is what they've been doing. Just imagine the damage ISIS could do if they had the ability to make people untraceable.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Starfleet seemed to be unprepared for an ongoing conflict. Considering the Romulans have been in isolation for nearly 100 years and there had been little contact with the Klingons apart from the odd raid on an outpost in around the same time, Starfleet has clearly been resting on it's laurels. They're explorers who have relied too long on diplomacy to solve issues, and the Klingons took advantage of this. The Federation knows next to nothing about the Klingons, which seems to extend to their military tactics. Starfleet would probably be doing much better had the Klingons not pulled their own version of the 9/11 attacks on three starbases and wiped out 1/3rd of the fleet. The Klingons are not playing by the rules and Starfleet doesn't have any idea about how to respond to this.

It will be this conflict that breeds experienced battle commanders and warrior-explorers like Kirk 10 years down the line.

 

[Noname Given]

I’d agree. The farfetched part is the “9 month” piece.

While different Trek movies and TV episodes show a Klingon/Starfleet war going one way or the other (in The Undiscovered Country the Starfleet admirals are confident they’d beat the Klingons ) ,it’s not pictured as a walkover event for both sides in any of them. Except Discovery.



The story makes some stupid allowances regarding the war. In the Shatnerverse a Romulan/Klingon cloaking device was a strategic tool, not a doomsday advantage. Starfleet captains aren’t stupid (unless he’s named Harriman and it’s Tuesday) , so I don’t buy the notion of cloaked birds of prey owning Starfleet ships en masse.

I could go on,but Discovery doesn’t sell the notion of Starfleet losing that fast to me. Maybe after 10 years of attrition, but 9 months? Bull.

You forgot Captains like Esteban (of the destroyed U.S.S. Grissom) and Stkles (who also struck me as just conceited and overly arrogant) from STIII:TSFS. <--- So, yeah, pretty much Starfleet Captains other than Kirk are either crazy (Captain Ron Tracy and Commadore William Deker) or stupid or arrogant it seems

It is not unbelievable that the Klingons could win a war against the Federation, it is however rather unbelievable that they could do it this fast while apparently not having a central organisation at all. The Federation is not fighting the Klingon Empire, they're fighting a bunch of disorganised raiders.

^^^
Actually, that would make things even worse as there's no one Klingon leader or group to even try and negotiate with (which is why going for Qnos directly makes sense as it's the ONE thing all 24 House have in common and would want to protect); but also with the Klingon cloaking/ECM tech (until Discovery re-appeared) - that's another advantage these Klingons had. Plus it's not 24 'disorganized raiders' it's 24 leaders who got where they did by killing/outmaneuvering other Klingons so you have 24 hardened/experienced 'Generals' to contend with.

 

[unimatrix7]

As noted earlier, in 'Yesterday's Enterprise' it took united Klingon Empire two decades to bring the Federation on the brink of defeat, and those Klingons had the cloak too. Cloak is not such a game changer, both Klingon and Romulans will have it in the future.

In Yesterday's Enterprise, Starfleet had already fought and presumably won the Discovery-era Klingon War. In the Discovery era, fighting Klingons is new to Starfleet. As are cloaking devices. It seems reasonable to me - given that Starfleet is reliably hopeless at war in any era - that Starfleet would suffer heavy losses in this first Klingon war. By the 2360s, I presume a larger, more mature, more advanced, and battle-hardened Starfleet familiar with Klingon battle tactics would indeed last significantly longer. Perhaps even the twenty years stated.

Just a quick edit to add that given the Praxis disaster that occurred after the war portrayed in Disco, yet before the Yesterday’s Enterprise timeline was triggered, it seems logical to assume that Klingon military might in the 2360s was not what it once was.

 

[Silversmok3]

Actually, that would make things even worse as there's no one Klingon leader or group to even try and negotiate with (which is why going for Qnos directly makes sense as it's the ONE thing all 24 House have in common and would want to protect); but also with the Klingon cloaking/ECM tech (until Discovery re-appeared) - that's another advantage these Klingons had.

Perhaps this got retconned ,but if memory serves the cloaking tech was “licensed” to other Klingon houses , in exchange for swearing fealty to the house leader who took over the sarcophagus ship & kicked out T’rell.