• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, The War Within"

Rate the episode...


  • Total voters
    240
Minor gripe.

Why did the crew call Saru Captain?

Did he promote himself?
I get that he was in command but surely he was still Commander?

At least he demoted himself again af the end.

Like I said, Minor gripe.
So so episode, I really liked the little scene in the canteen with Tyler, Tilly and the others. Not been enough of that sort of thing this season.
it seems in Trek, especially as of late (the Kelvinverse films do it a LOT), whoever is in charge of the ship at any given time gets referred to as "captain" regardless of their Starfleet rank.

It was true of Kirk in TMP as well.

But it seems to be something that has become more the norm in the last decade.
It's not just Trek - IIRC, it's nautical tradition. Like @Vger23 says, anyone who sits in the center seat may be addressed as Captain. Happened in the TOS films as well, when Saavik was in the Kobayashi Maru simulator, for example. Smaller ships in the US Navy are not always run by Captains or other flag officers, but by Commanders too. They can be addressed as "Captain" or "Skipper" when on duty in that capacity. Those here who may be in the Navy or Coast Guard may be able to offer deeper insight into this tradition, but I believe it's been this way for a really long time. Since Starfleet is largely based on the US Navy, it makes sense they would do it too. It also appears to be common practice to address female officers either as "sir" and "ma'am", which threw me the first time I heard it in TWOK. I've since gotten used to it, and I even recall Janeway preemptively addressing the awkwardness of said honorific in the outset of Voyager.
 
Sounds like they may be running out of officers, with all their losses. They've got psychologist Admiral Cornwell making (bad) tactical decisions by this point, not a good sign
Yeah Cornwell really didn't impress in the episode at all, I appreciate that the last nine months have been terrible but I would expect a Starfleet Admiral to hold up better than that, her psychology background just makes it worse.
 
Or...people just REALLY liked the episode because their tastes are different than others who didn't.

I don't know...it certainly could just be that simple. It's certainly not unheard of to have people who really like something (Star Trek for example) rate an episode really high because they're FANS of the show.

Again...doesn't really seem unusual or vexing to me...seems pretty natural. Just as it's natural for people who hate something to rate it a "1" like it was the worst piece of entertainment in this history of the civilized world. Some people are just overjoyed and happy to have a Star Trek property that they enjoy. I, for one, am enjoying Star Trek on television more than I have since seasons 3 and 4 of TNG. That was a bit of a while ago.

I'm not sure why there's a problem with that...other than it makes the vocal minority look / feel bad because it doesn't match up with their viewpoint on things.

Cool.

There's no right or wrong rating to give.

It was a 6 for me.
 
Yeah Cornwell really didn't impress in the episode at all, I appreciate that the last nine months have been terrible but I would expect a Starfleet Admiral to hold up better than that, her psychology background just makes it worse.

Cut her some slack. She escaped from a Klingon prison (ship), had a lot of her friends and colleagues killed in the war, and just found out her boyfriend is dead, and what's worse, she was banging his "Evil-Universe" doppelganger who was fooling her for months (before Discovery went to the MU).
 
On The Last Ship, Commander McSteamy was regularly addressed as Captain. His XO, Commander Jayne Cobb, was addressed simply as XO. That show had heavy US Navy involvement (advisors and whatnot).
 
I can dig it. Goes a long to way to explain why we never saw the actual ISS Discovery. The changes to the model, apart from the minor skinning differences with the MU livery, might have been too expensive.
Given that the USS Discovery could pass for the ISS version of itself with nothing more than an (extremely) quick-and-dirty cosmetic makeover, I think it's safe to assume that the two ships looked basically the same.

Its about bloody time that the Federation and Starfleet accepted the reality of true and total war, no diplomacy, no talking and no demands except extermination, extreme situations require extreme solutions, sometimes it really does boil down to shoot first and ask questions later.
I couldn't disagree more. Not only is that at odds with the ethos of Starfleet and the UFP, it's at odds with reality. Sure, political leaders, fanatics, and demagogues always try to make people think that Official Enemies are totally ruthless and implacable, but 99.9 percent of the time it's sheer bullshit. People are people everywhere, with motivations that are mostly understandable and reasonable, and more susceptible to persuasion than to coercive force. (Hell, within half-a-dozen years of the end of World War II, Japan was a modern parliamentary democracy that had voluntarily renounced war and become an ally of the US.)

I love Cornwell hope she makes it to season 2.
I agree, but I'm not betting on it at this point. As of this week's cliffhanger, re: Georgiou, she just made what is quite possibly the most recklessly stupid decision I've ever seen from a Starfleet admiral (and it's not as if she's without stiff competition there). When things go pear-shaped, as they inevitably will, she's going to be the one held responsible.

The reason the Mirror U was classified, because of versions of people's lost loved ones being alive out there and that causing chaos, is hanging depressingly with me. Thinking of Jennifer Sisko. Thinking of our society today and how we'd react to something like this. How I'd react to it personally. It's kinda f***ed up to think about.
On the one hand, you'd think that people would realize it's actually only people who look like their lost loved ones. They're actually Completely Different People, often in pretty radical ways. It's like getting hung up on your ex's identical twin. On the other hand, the resemblance certainly seems to have swayed Burnham's emotions beyond the bounds of reason...

Let’s just say this, [Kirk and Picard] are both preachy. So was Janeway & Sisko for that matter. I guess who somebody thinks is the worst is just a matter of opinion. And I like both Kirk & Picard so I don’t mean to denigrate either.
The worst? Surely you mean the best? ;) Nothing satisfies quite like a good charismatic Kirk speech!
 
Minor gripe.

Why did the crew call Saru Captain?

Did he promote himself?
I get that he was in command but surely he was still Commander?

At least he demoted himself again af the end.

Like I said, Minor gripe.
So so episode, I really liked the little scene in the canteen with Tyler, Tilly and the others. Not been enough of that sort of thing this season.

Whoever is in charge is the Captain, even its a lowly Ensign after all the senior officers have died in battle
 
The commander of a ship has always been called captain - throughout naval history - regardless of his grade rank.

Hence why Sulu in both TOS and Into Darkness referred to himself as Captain of the Enterprise whenever Kirk left him in command of the ship. For all practical purposes he was the Captain until Kirk or another senior officer returned to the ship and relieved him from the center seat. You don't necessarily need to hold the actual rank of Captain, otherwise Matt Decker and Bob Wesley would never have commanded Constitution-class starships.
 
Hence why Sulu in both TOS and Into Darkness referred to himself as Captain of the Enterprise whenever Kirk left him in command of the ship.
And yet he referred to himself as "master" when he was Captain of the Excelsior. Must have been a habit he picked up during his time as a Freemason. :D
 
My two cents

Whatever their substantive rank they are the Acting Captain

So they could be called Acting Captain or just Captain
 
With all due respect, TOS is hands-down my favorite Star Trek series, and the only one of which I have watched every single episode, more than once. I'll stand by what I said: the utopian futurism of the show was there from the very beginning. TNG may have extrapolated (some of) it further, but it didn't originate it and it most assuredly wasn't a retcon. There are plenty of people who were fans before 1987 who can testify to this.

It was clear that the Federation was a society built around egalitarianism and freedom. Nationalism has been left in the past, as had material scarcity and the vices it engendered. People didn't work "for a living," they worked for personal satisfaction and self-realization. The Federation was clearly a post-capitalist society, without money, as Kirk himself mentioned in STIV:TVH (still before TNG). When you bring up examples like Harry Mudd or Cyrano Jones, the thing to remember about TOS is that the Enterprise was out at the frontier, dealing with societies that were not part of the Federation, whether by choice or because they hadn't yet had the chance to join, ranging from colonies and outposts to full-fledged interstellar governments. (The Federation had no death penalty, for instance — Talos IV aside — so if Deneb V did then it obviously wasn't a member.) These other societies certainly could and did have economies of their own, and it makes sense that "Federation credits" were what the UFP used when it had to trade with such societies, but that says nothing about how things were conducted within the UFP. We never even visited any of the homeworlds (except Vulcan, just once, for a ceremonial occasion).


I'm curious what example(s) you're thinking of there, because none spring to mind.


What you say makes a certain kind of nasty sense... but the more I thought about it, the more I decided that nothing we've seen of Cornwell makes her seem that ruthless and conniving. Disillusioned, yes, but that's not the same thing.


I don't remember Khan ever being described as the most terrible dictator in history, much less a genocidal one. On the contrary, in "Space Seed," Scotty admitted to "a sneaking admiration" for him and mentioned that "there were no massacres under his rule"; McCoy specified that there were "no wars until he was attacked"; and Kirk called him "the best of the tyrants." His rule wasn't known for freedom, true, but comparing him to a bloodthirsty maniac like Georgiou is ridiculous.


Great post, calling out some real whoppers in the storytelling. Unlike you I rather liked the Stamets/Tyler scene, but other than that I think you're on the money. This whole storyline has been a mess. I'm beginning to wonder if this show has any professional advisers or consultants on military affairs, government, or diplomacy, never mind the science stuff. TOS always had experts consulting on its stories, but with DSC, sometimes it seems like the writers are just making it all up as they go, with no reality checks at all.


You know, you were offering some interesting (if disquieting) speculations about the show's themes... until you suddenly went full MRA in the middle of the post. Yikes. Speaking as a guy (stereotypical straight white male American, no less), I can assure you that even deep down in my heart I would not commit genocide to end a war... and I'd hope that the vast majority of civilized human beings, male or female, would say the same thing.

There are lots of ways to find "the will to survive" that don't involve sacrificing what makes us human, and that's not "sanctimonious tripe" nor "politically correct." Really, that's a big part of what Star Trek has always been about.


Umm, no. The law remains the law, in wartime as in peacetime. That's true even today, and I can't imagine the Federation would be less civilized. Why do you imagine otherwise?


One certainly does hope so. Unfortunately, revealing it will presumably also mean Cornwell takes the fall for it, which will cost us another good recurring character, one who showed a lot of potential until she was saddled with this storyline.




I also flashed back to her holo-appearance on the bridge at first, before I recalled that was on the MU Shenzou. Probably a side-effect of the bridge sets looking so similar, with almost indistinguishable color schemes, lighting, and camera angles.

That said, putting this in perspective, it seems shamefully obvious that the last few episodes were written as they were... right down to the Emperor being mysteriously nameless to most denizens of the MU... specifically (and only) so the writers could set up this "twist" with MU Georgiou replacing her counterpart. Evidently they felt so strongly that this was a story worth telling that they carefully constructed previous events, however implausibly, just to make it possible. I can't say as I agree... so far, I find it gimmicky and offensive, and I'm hard-pressed to imagine what could happen next week to change that impression.


Can't agree at all. I find her boring, clichéd, and tiresome.


The fact that you're comparing this particular contrivance to some of the worst stories in the history of Star Trek says a lot about the level DSC is operating on here.
My point is that we've not seen anything on Discovery even close to those levels of bad. But you go ahead and translate it anyway you want.
 
Cut her some slack. She escaped from a Klingon prison (ship), had a lot of her friends and colleagues killed in the war, and just found out her boyfriend is dead, and what's worse, she was banging his "Evil-Universe" doppelganger who was fooling her for months (before Discovery went to the MU).
She's an Admiral. She doesn't get slack.
 
Whoever is in charge is the Captain, even its a lowly Ensign after all the senior officers have died in battle

I get that, their official rank doesn't change though.
Riker in BOBW for example, after Picard was lost he was still Commander despite being in command.
He remained Commander until Admiral Hanson promoted him.
 
I get that, their official rank doesn't change though.
Riker in BOBW for example, after Picard was lost he was still Commander despite being in command.
He remained Commander until Admiral Hanson promoted him.

No, their rank doesn't change but they still get called Captain if they are the senior officer in charge of the ship regardless of rank. It's real world Naval tradition.
 
No, their rank doesn't change but they still get called Captain if they are the senior officer in charge of the ship regardless of rank. It's real world Naval tradition.
Yeah I had a friend who was a pretty senior (non-military but computing) specialist in the RN. All such people have an "honorary" RN rank for the purposes of big fancy dinners etc. He confirmed long ago when I asked him about Commanders in charge of ships, rather than Captains, that in the RN (at least), it tends to be big ships like aircraft carriers that have someone in command who holds the "official" rank of Captain...many smaller ships have someone with "official" rank of Commander. But anyone in the centre seat of a ship is called Captain, no matter their "official" rank. (When not on tour they, of course, are referred to using their official rank - commander or whatnot).
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top