Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, The War Within"

[trekfan39]

Kinda makes you wonder how the Crossfield class even came to be in the MU. It seems rather purpose-built for the spore drive, doesn't it? What with the spinning, segmented saucer, and all?

I don't think so, They said in one episode that the only two ships with spore drive are the Glenn and the Discovery so we know the USS Crossfield doesn't have it. I personally think the Glenn and Discovery are a variant of the Crossfield class which were built for the spore drive only. They probably look a lot alike but without the spinning saucer section and maybe a few other differences.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I don't think so, They said in one episode that the only two ships with spore drive are the Glenn and the Discovery so we know the USS Crossfield doesn't have it. I personally think the Glenn and Discovery are a variant of the Crossfield class which were built for the spore drive only. They probably look a lot alike but without the spinning saucer section and maybe a few other differences.

Thinking about it, if SF groups registry numbers to classes (for the most part), the Crossfield could still be an older class, and the Discovery and Glenn could be brand new ships using registry numbers from the original class.

It might explain 1030 & 1031 in an era where they're up to (at least) the 1700's.

Of course, you could always go with the TMP Enterprise refit as a "brand new ship" explanation as well. So much of it was rebuilt that it might as well be brand spanking new, but yet the same "old" ship.

 

[Boomer359]

Whilst I can just about swallow the whole "restricted access" thing by Saru, the moment Ash admits to Michael that it's Michael that has been the key to "recovering/maintaining Ash" (whether he's referring to the pre-exorcism or now) I feel it was Michael's duty to tell Cornwall/Saru that Ash is now a greater potential threat and should be restricted to quarters/locked up. She made a big deal about serving her penance early in the season - why, given the frankly ominous admission by Ash, is she not applying similar standards. Caution alone should make her act, whatever feelings she still has internally and refused to admit to him.

They did put that bracelet thingy on him. While there was no explicit explanation of the things exact function, I think the context was fairly clear that it somehow restricted his access aboard the ship. Seems a fairly reasonable assumption that it maybe stops certain doors from opening for him and perhaps tracks his whereabouts more closely than what would be standard procedure for other crew members. Really, though, in terms of the story and production, it can likely do any and everything required to adequately restrict him without the need to physically confine the character to any one shooting location.

I'm curious what example(s) you're thinking of there, because none spring to mind.

Was that planet with the cloud city a Federation world? They practiced a form of class segregation and oppression.

As for a more contemporary example (if that's even possible in discussing fictional future events), Trill seems to fit this description. They have a stratified social hierarchy that clearly favors joined individuals.

 

[Boomer359]

I don't think so, They said in one episode that the only two ships with spore drive are the Glenn and the Discovery so we know the USS Crossfield doesn't have it. I personally think the Glenn and Discovery are a variant of the Crossfield class which were built for the spore drive only. They probably look a lot alike but without the spinning saucer section and maybe a few other differences.

I can dig it. Goes a long to way to explain why we never saw the actual ISS Discovery. The changes to the model, apart from the minor skinning differences with the MU livery, might have been too expensive.

 

[Campe]

Picard certainly was preachy and I didn't like it. With Kirk it was a little less in your face.

Ehhhhh....

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[Wulf]

Kinda makes you wonder how the Crossfield class even came to be in the MU. It seems rather purpose-built for the spore drive, doesn't it? What with the spinning, segmented saucer, and all?

By an extreme coincidence, in the MU it's a kelpian blender.

 

[Long Syntax]

Couldn't catch up until this morning but just watched... I'll give it a 6.5 but vote 6 (it got a point up from 5.5 due to the ENT mention). To get the 7 they would have had to show the Tilly death scene. Just saying it doesn't cut it.

I can't believe how many 10's this show gets. I'm not really following the grading system. I would think the median should really fall somewhere lower.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Kinda makes you wonder how the Crossfield class even came to be in the MU. It seems rather purpose-built for the spore drive, doesn't it? What with the spinning, segmented saucer, and all?

Since the PU was already known about in the MU due to the Defiant's presence, and since it is also known that the Spore Drive can cross the interdimensional barrier, it would stand to reason that ISS Crossfield and her sister ships were designed by the Empire to facilitate the invasion of those other universes once the known galaxy has fallen. PU Crossfields are for peaceful exploration (and a one-time use in a local war) and the MU Crossfields are for conquering the multiverse. Some of the world's greatest inventions emerge out of war. This would be no different.

 

[lawman]

You fight to protect yourself and your loved ones.

Well, squirrels do that. It's a part of us as humans, certainly, but I'd like to think there's a lot more to us than that.

And even then, love is definitely part of the motivations involved, as Amaris posted.

It was like every female crew member decided to eat with him. If he wasn't so good looking, would they have? I'd like to say yes, but I know better...

How did this idea emerge that Tyler is good looking? Did I miss a memo that being a lanky greasy-haired guy with no chin and a neckbeard is the current hot look? If so, I had a few friends in high school whose main problem was being way ahead of their time...

I believe that the best way of dealing with our darker nature is to first admit that it exists. ... History has shown us that we are capable of great evil, and not just our leaders, ordinary people as well...

Okay, I can agree with that...

What Discovery is presenting us with is a situation that is an existential threat to the human race.

On the other hand, I can't agree with that, not by a long shot. Nothing DSC has shown us or told us about the Klingon war suggests it's anywhere near that dire.

You see I'm the type of guy who believes that everything can be made right if people would just sit down and talk to each other.

And once again, I can agree with that...

So presenting an enemy who can't be reasoned with challenges the way I think.

Here's where you lose me. Fiction is actually depressingly full of enemies who are depicted as implacable, inhuman, ruthless, and immune to reason. Just drop by the Star Wars universe and check out the Empire/First Order. (Real-world politics likes to pretend that enemies are that way, as well.) What has always set Trek apart is its willingness to defy that tired trope and show that diplomacy actually can and does work.

Ardana is a Federation member world. Plasus routinely uses torture to get information from prisoners; and still routinely executes criminals.

Not exactly TOS at its best... but yes, undeniably, that is a canonical example of what you're talking about.

However....

The Federation knows all the above; yet because they allow each member world to govern it's society as the leaders see fit - the Federation Council and member worlds have no issues with it...

This part is far from clear. The episode suggests that Ardana's rigid caste structure was unknown to Kirk and Spock when they arrived (thus, presumably, absent from Starfleet and UFP databases). How the planet could have acquired membership while keeping such things secret is an unexplored issue (but then, it's only one of many issues the episode fails to explore).

(And no the above ISN'T the only example I can give from the TOS era - but I don't feel like doing a longer post, this example proves the point I was making.)

Well, I don't know about that. This page from Memory Alpha leaves me thinking that Ardana may in fact be the only such example from the TOS era...

...and moreover, it really doesn't prove the larger point. I'll stipulate that it shows not every Federation member world in the 23rd century necessarily lived up to its high ideals. (Similarly, in the US today, we still have states like Alabama.) That's different from saying those ideals weren't present, or that the future depicted in TOS was not, by and large, one of utopian idealism.

 

[Gonzo]

Just watched the episode and I thought it was good, it is a setup for the finale though so it was a relatively quiet one for the most part.

No surprise Tyler is off the hook even though his Starfleet career is over, the man was essentially brought back from the dead and is not to blame for his actions as those actions were not really his at all.

Satisfied to hear that the mirror Discovery didn't last long in the prime universe, its presence would have made things too complicated if it had continued to affect the prime universe for any length of time.

Looks to me like the changes they made to the planet are the precursor to the creation of the Genesis project.

Its about bloody time that the Federation and Starfleet accepted the reality of true and total war, no diplomacy, no talking and no demands except extermination, extreme situations require extreme solutions, sometimes it really does boil down to shoot first and ask questions later.

I very much doubt the plan will go ahead though as we know Qo'Nos isn't decimated, Burnham could end up playing the mutineer again now that another Georgiou is sitting in the Captains chair, would be a nice symmetry, the first time it appeared to start a war although in truth it was gong to happen anyway.

I can see Burnham regaining her previous rank if she plays her cards right, maybe even the Captains chair.

No other ships shown in the teaser which is a shame, not surprising though I guess.

 

[XCV330]

.

I can see Burnham regaining her previous rank if she plays her cards right, maybe even the Captains chair.

No other ships shown in the teaser which is a shame, not surprising though I guess.

I can't see her in the captain's chair. Saru needs to be the captain. He already saved their butts again when Admiral Cornball choked.

 

[Gonzo]

I can't see her in the captain's chair. Saru needs to be the captain. He already saved their butts again when Admiral Cornball choked.

I dunno, for me Saru has 1st Officer written all over him, for all we know the show could move forward into the new seasons with Mirror Georgiou as the Captain, wouldn't that be a shot out of the blue even though it would be unsustainable.

I don't mind if Burnham takes the First Officer position once the war is over, after taking so many losses Starfleet wont really have any choice but to reinstate her due to Staff shortages, wouldn't surprise me if Tilly gets a promotion as well.

It really depends on how the mirror Georgiou issue is resolved and what Burnham does when she finds out the whole plan.

I could see Burnham as Captain but the story and plot moving forward may require her to just be 1st Officer or maybe even continue as a specialist, must admit Saru hasn't been a 1st Officer for very long which is why I wonder if they would give him the Captains chair so soon, if we take out Burnhams mutiny it would be no contest between them.

Like I said the finale will tell us a lot about possible promotions and reinstatements in the new season.

 

[Long Syntax]

Damn, there's 39 pages of this thread now and I can't be bothered reading every post. Did anyone gripe about how aparently stupid the brigdge crew are to just accept Capt Georgiou? I mean, most of them were at the Battle of the Binary Stars and KNOW Georgiou died -- AND they just cam back from a harrowing experience in the MU - knowing that Burnham was very close with the Emperor. I mean, SOMEBODY would question her just waking onto the bridge, no?

What completely and absolutely shitty writing (yeah, I'll write IMHO, but it's assumed in every post).

 

[XCV330]

I could see Burnham as Captain but the story and plot moving forward may require her to just be 1st Officer or maybe even continue as a specialist, must admit Saru hasn't been a 1st Officer for very long which is why I wonder if they would give him the Captains chair so soon, if we take out Burnhams mutiny it would be no contest between them.

Like I said the finale will tell us a lot about possible promotions and reinstatements in the new season.

Sounds like they may be running out of officers, with all their losses. They've got psychologist Admiral Cornwell making (bad) tactical decisions by this point, not a good sign

 

[Timo]

Since the PU was already known about in the MU due to the Defiant's presence, and since it is also known that the Spore Drive can cross the interdimensional barrier

...But it isn't known. The Emperor is ready to engage in a deal that will serve no other purpose than provide her with the secret of the spore drive, giving credence to her claim that the MU lacks this technology. Clearly, Mirror Stamets was working on the mushroom network, but just as clearly, he had come nowhere near creating a ship that can jump across space, let alone across universes. Since he had developed something else altogether, we don't even know whether he ever wanted to create a jump drive at all.

it would stand to reason that ISS Crossfield and her sister ships were designed by the Empire to facilitate the invasion of those other universes once the known galaxy has fallen.

In that case, it would be triply inappropriate for the Emperor to show all those outward signs of surprise (executing her top advisors, say!) at the fact that people from the purported ISS Discovery are from another universe.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Damn, there's 39 pages of this thread now and I can't be bothered reading every post. Did anyone gripe about how aparently stupid the brigdge crew are to just accept Capt Georgiou? I mean, most of them were at the Battle of the Binary Stars and KNOW Georgiou died -- AND they just cam back from a harrowing experience in the MU - knowing that Burnham was very close with the Emperor. I mean, SOMEBODY would question her just waking onto the bridge, no?

I don't think anybody would ask any questions. I mean, what'd be the point? It's clearly Admiral Cornwell's wish to put the Emperor in command of the ship, so objecting to this will only get the objector jailed - and probably quietly executed as well, considering.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr Awe]

I'd have to agree. They have a screaming need for think-pieces.... Trek isn't Trek w/o them. I'm about done with the war arc. I'm just not looking forward to a reset button.

I've enjoyed this season greatly, but I am also ready for them move away from the war arc. I don't want a reset button approach--just a new direction. Preferably without the Klingons. This season has been awesome but it's time to move on to something else for season 2.

 

[Paradise City]

Appoint a psychopath, mass murdering, power hungry tyrant from a universe where duplicity and treachery is a virtual religion in charge of what is your most useful ship. As long as she doesn't forget herself and have the first officer as a quick lunchtime pick-me-up what could possibly go wrong?

Yeah, I fancied she might be an advisor or something but they give her the ship and got everyone to role play that she was the real McCoy? The writing is now getting a bit screwy for my liking, lol.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I mean, most of them were at the Battle of the Binary Stars and KNOW Georgiou died

By "most" you mean "Kayla."

And with the [apparent] approval of a flag officer, their acting captain, and the one person who was there when she "died," there's nothing for them to question. As far as anyone knows or could be concerned, the whole thing may as well have been a spec-ops.

 

[Tuskin38]

Damn, there's 39 pages of this thread now and I can't be bothered reading every post. Did anyone gripe about how aparently stupid the brigdge crew are to just accept Capt Georgiou? I mean, most of them were at the Battle of the Binary Stars and KNOW Georgiou died -- AND they just cam back from a harrowing experience in the MU - knowing that Burnham was very close with the Emperor. I mean, SOMEBODY would question her just waking onto the bridge, no?

What completely and absolutely shitty writing (yeah, I'll write IMHO, but it's assumed in every post).

No one except Burnham saw her die.

I've enjoyed this season greatly, but I am also ready for them move away from the war arc. I don't want a reset button approach--just a new direction. Preferably without the Klingons. This season has been awesome but it's time to move on to something else for season 2.

Next season will not be about war, and will have more familiar trek stuff like actually visiting planets. this has been confirmed.