Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x13 - "What's Past Is Prologue"

[gblews]

I know it's not just you doing this, but I really wish people wouldn't respond to pointing out flaws in the writing by coming up with in-universe explanations.

But it's okay to use out-of-universe explanations to support perceived in-universe writing flaws:

We know Fuller didn't intend Lorca to be from the MU. Presumably at that time Tilly was already a character sketch. Hence the original inclusion of her on the ship had nothing to do with MU Lorca's needs.

In-universe, Lorca was always a refugee from the MU regardless of out-of-universe speculation about the production staff and their respective intentions, which means that it is not inconceivable that Lorca could very well have wanted Tilly on the Disco fo participate in his future plans in the MU.

Also, Mary Wiseman is the same age as SMG - 32. She doesn't look particularly young for her age either. Maybe Tilly had a career change in her mid 20s and entered the academy late, but I think it would have been more plausible if she was an ensign or something. Hell, I often forget she's a cadet and accidently call her ensign Tilly.

In-universe, "Cadet Tilly" is an early to mid-20's young woman regardless of Mary Wiseman's age or our perceptions of how old she looks.

 

[fireproof78]

In-universe, "Cadet Tilly" is an early to mid-20's young woman regardless of Mary Wiseman's age or our perceptions of how old she looks.

She always struck me as younger than Burnham so, I support this idea.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And Kirk is a decade plus older than Chekov, but Shatner is only five years older than Koenig.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yep. In the Prime timeline Kirk was 12 years older than Chekov. Even in the Kelvin timeline he's eight years Chekov's senior.

 

[Noname Given]

The problem is this is a within canon explanation. We know Fuller didn't intend Lorca to be from the MU. Presumably at that time Tilly was already a character sketch. Hence the original inclusion of her on the ship had nothing to do with MU Lorca's needs.

Excuse me, but can you provide a link to Fuller quoted saying it wasn't his intention for Lorca to be from the MU? I say that because if you've seen the type of stuff he usually does on shows he's a part of, something like that would be EXACTLY the type of thing he'd do.

 

[Tuskin38]

Excuse me, but can you provide a link to Fuller quoted saying it wasn't his intention for Lorca to be from the MU?

http://trekcore.com/blog/2018/01/ca...trek-discovery-whats-past-is-prologue-events/

Lorca didn’t start out as being from the Terran Empire until Harberts and co-showrunner Gretchen Berg took command.

 

[cultcross]

That may be the article writer's interpretation, but that isn't what the quote actually says

Harberts explained that the writers knew from the start, when creator Bryan Fuller was first planning out the show’s serialized storyline, that the inaugural season of Discovery would end up in the Mirror Universe. (Fuller eventually left the show due to creative differences with CBS, elevating Harberts and Gretchen J. Berg to showrunner status.)

But at first, the writers planned for Lorca to be a hawkish captain given a chance to shine thanks to the Federation’s war with the Klingon Empire. It was only after the writers began discussing why Lorca would be so skilled with warfare that they hit upon the idea that he’d secretly be from the militaristic world of the Mirror Universe.

Although it mentions Fuller's departure, that doesn't necessarily predate the decision to make Lorca Mirror!Lorca. We know it was decided before Jason Isaacs signed on, but we don't know if it came before or after Fuller's departure.

 

[Nyotarules]

"It was only after the writers began discussing why Lorca would be so skilled with warfare that they hit upon the idea that he’d secretly be from the militaristic world of the Mirror Universe.

So Starfleet is run by a bunch of flower arrangers or something? Do these writers even know the franchise?

 

[jaime]

"It was only after the writers began discussing why Lorca would be so skilled with warfare that they hit upon the idea that he’d secretly be from the militaristic world of the Mirror Universe.

So Starfleet is run by a bunch of flower arrangers or something? Do these writers even know the franchise?

To be fair, I think Flower arranging was pretty popular with Samurai.

 

[Noname Given]

"It was only after the writers began discussing why Lorca would be so skilled with warfare that they hit upon the idea that he’d secretly be from the militaristic world of the Mirror Universe.

So Starfleet is run by a bunch of flower arrangers or something? Do these writers even know the franchise?

^^^
Yeah, it really seems ALL these guys (including Fuller) are more Utopian 24th century TNG fans then they are TOS 23rd century era fans; and honestly, with the fact they haven't even shown ONE ship in any ship shot with multiple ships that really even looks anything like a classic TOS Federation or Klingon ship design; I take all their comments of:

- Yeah, we're TOS fans
and
- Yes, we know canon and stuff may seem strange, but trust us, it'll all work out in the end.

Worth a grain of salt.

Again (and I've said this a lot iin response to "Hey, it's 2018, not 1966..." - yes, I'm aware and no, I'm NOT expecting a full hardcore TOS redux; but they COULD throw us fans who still love the classic exterior ship designs a nod ion one of the multiple ship shots they've done over the series. They haven't done that once in 14 episodes. Not even with the U.S.S. Defiant wireframe <--- Although with the ship being 90+ years in the MU at this point it's the ONE TOS ship where modification to it's original design makes sense here,)

The writers seemed to just pay a lot of lip service to TOS fans, but yeah, in execution, they still are in the 24th century era mindset and that does suck for a series that's SUPPOSED to be in Kirk's/Spock's/McCoy's original Star Trek era. It would be nice if for the second season they brought in some past Trek staff who SHOWED they had some like/respect for the original Star Trek 23rd century TV era, like Manny Coto, Mike Sussman, or Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens.

 

[fireproof78]

The writers seemed to just pay a lot of lip service to TOS fans, but yeah, in execution, they still are in the 24th century era mindset and that does suck for a series that's SUPPOSED to be in Kirk's/Spock's/McCoy's original Star Trek era. It would be nice if for the second season they brought in some past Trek staff who SHOWED they had some like/respect for the original Star Trek 23rd century TV era, like Manny Coto, Mike Sussman, or Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens.

And they still might. I think they wanted to show their own distinct tone and then work to bring it all together.

Again, cup of salt and all, but I'm still optimistic.

 

[XCV330]

"It was only after the writers began discussing why Lorca would be so skilled with warfare that they hit upon the idea that he’d secretly be from the militaristic world of the Mirror Universe.

So Starfleet is run by a bunch of flower arrangers or something? Do these writers even know the franchise?

Starfleet had its ass handed to it for 20 years in the "Garrett-verse" and would have lost, despite all the advantages Starfleet has over the Klingons. They couldn't hold their own against the Dominion either. Klingon involvement was a must. They finally have them absorbed by the Sphere Builder War so that's ok, but yeah. flower arrangers. Isn't Cornwell a psychologist by trade?

 

[Nyotarules]

No wonder Kelvin Marcus wanted to start a war, he could see the organisation was run by a bunch of hippies! lol I am surprised TOS Admiral Marcus did not give Burnham a medal! Maybe he was overruled.

 

[cooleddie74]

"It was only after the writers began discussing why Lorca would be so skilled with warfare that they hit upon the idea that he’d secretly be from the militaristic world of the Mirror Universe.

So Starfleet is run by a bunch of flower arrangers or something? Do these writers even know the franchise?

Apparently not. That, or they're smitten with the myth that Gene concocted of the Federation being a virtual utopia where everybody settles their differences with talking and poetry or some such shit that never made sense even when Gene was still alive. Starfleet isn't some humanitarian organization that uses olive branches to solve every problem.

 

[Tuskin38]

According to Ted Sullivan, the reason Georgiou and Michael beam on to separate pads, is because that's how it was during TOS. Kirsten Beyer said it should be like that.

https://twitter.com/karterhol/status/961268728926167040
https://twitter.com/karterhol/status/961242012551856129

 

[cooleddie74]

According to Ted Sullivan, the reason Georgiou and Michael beam on to separate pads, is because that's how it was during TOS. Kirsten Beyer said it should be like that.

https://twitter.com/karterhol/status/961268728926167040
https://twitter.com/karterhol/status/961242012551856129

Good. I like that tip of the hat.

I hadn't even paid attention to the connection with TOS until you just mentioned it, but now it makes sense. Hooray for Beyer for trying to keep any eye out for older fans.

 

[Vger23]

^^^
Yeah, it really seems ALL these guys (including Fuller) are more Utopian 24th century TNG fans then they are TOS 23rd century era fans; and honestly, with the fact they haven't even shown ONE ship in any ship shot with multiple ships that really even looks anything like a classic TOS Federation or Klingon ship design; I take all their comments of:

- Yeah, we're TOS fans
and
- Yes, we know canon and stuff may seem strange, but trust us, it'll all work out in the end.

Worth a grain of salt.

Again (and I've said this a lot iin response to "Hey, it's 2018, not 1966..." - yes, I'm aware and no, I'm NOT expecting a full hardcore TOS redux; but they COULD throw us fans who still love the classic exterior ship designs a nod ion one of the multiple ship shots they've done over the series. They haven't done that once in 14 episodes. Not even with the U.S.S. Defiant wireframe <--- Although with the ship being 90+ years in the MU at this point it's the ONE TOS ship where modification to it's original design makes sense here,)

The writers seemed to just pay a lot of lip service to TOS fans, but yeah, in execution, they still are in the 24th century era mindset and that does suck for a series that's SUPPOSED to be in Kirk's/Spock's/McCoy's original Star Trek era. It would be nice if for the second season they brought in some past Trek staff who SHOWED they had some like/respect for the original Star Trek 23rd century TV era, like Manny Coto, Mike Sussman, or Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens.

I like TOS far more than any of the other Trek series, and I don't have any problem with how DSC has handled things.