Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x13 - "What's Past Is Prologue"

[SJGardner]

I know it's not just you doing this, but I really wish people wouldn't respond to pointing out flaws in the writing by coming up with in-universe explanations.

I think that's kind of the point of the disagreement between us. I never thought I was simply trying to rationalize away perceived flaws in the narrative because most of them I didn't perceive as such to begin with. There hasn't been much to date that would pull me out of the narrative. For example, I saw no problems with Saru discussing Stamets' condition with her, as she was already the one manning the drive with Stamets, i didn't need to resort to leaps of logic to try and find an explanation for her presence. She hasn't done anything in that regard that wasn't already her job so having her there didn't feel out of place for me at all.

As for her seemingly inconsistent characterization with being awkward once and then becoming a party girl, that didn't raise my eyebrows either... being socially awkward doesn't necessarily mean having social phobia (I've known more than a few extroverted socially awkward people), and she's always seemed that kind of awkward type to me that had problems with establishing boundaries and would make eight new best friends (at least in her head) each time she went to the toilet. At the party, she was with people she knew fairly well, so her being relaxed around them didn't feel off for me either.

That being said, figuring out character motivations is kind of a hobby to me, but I generally don't have to use it as a last resort to try and explain writing choices that feel off or plain bad to me.

 

[eschaton]

I think that's kind of the point of the disagreement between us. I never thought I was simply trying to rationalize away perceived flaws in the narrative because most of them I didn't perceive as such to begin with. There hasn't been much to date that would pull me out of the narrative. For example, I saw no problems with Saru discussing Stamets' condition with her, as she was already the one manning the drive with Stamets, i didn't need to resort to leaps of logic to try and find an explanation for her presence. She hasn't done anything in that regard that wasn't already her job so having her there didn't feel out of place for me at all.

As for her seemingly inconsistent characterization with being awkward once and then becoming a party girl, that didn't raise my eyebrows either... being socially awkward doesn't necessarily mean having social phobia (I've known more than a few extroverted socially awkward people), and she's always seemed that kind of awkward type to me that had problems with establishing boundaries and would make eight new best friends (at least in her head) each time she went to the toilet. At the party, she was with people she knew fairly well, so her being relaxed around them didn't feel off for me either.

That being said, figuring out character motivations is kind of a hobby to me, but I generally don't have to use it as a last resort to try and explain writing choices that feel off or plain bad to me.

I dunno. Maybe it's because I at one point aspired to be a writer, but I find the story behind the story - the intent of the writers in the episode, and the execution - much, much more interesting than the characters themselves. I'm not even talking about just Discovery here, I'm talking about in general. So if it's my beloved DS9, I'd much rather discuss the themes of particular episodes, or why the characters were built the way they were, then to treat them as if they were actually human beings.

 

[SJGardner]

I dunno. Maybe it's because I at one point aspired to be a writer, but I find the story behind the story - the intent of the writers in the episode, and the execution - much, much more interesting than the characters themselves. I'm not even talking about just Discovery here, I'm talking about in general. So if it's my beloved DS9, I'd much rather discuss the themes of particular episodes, or why the characters were built the way they were, then to treat them as if they were actually human beings.

It's always been a very grey area for me myself... I've been trying to pen an epic fantasy novel myself for the last six years or so and I'm wondering from time to time whether I have the necessary ability to translate whatever's going on in my head into words that actually make sense and are entertaining to an audience. I have to admit I've had a much easier time analyzing DS9 as a work of art, mostly because it is hands down the most well-written and produced of all Star Trek series for me. I've always chosen what episode of it to watch mostly on the basis of which theme or character I wanted to watch an episode about and I wouldn't be able to do that with Discovery as it stands now. The latter is much more the 'new chapter in the story each week' kind of entertainment for me... I cannot say yet whether it will be worth rewatching on a long term.

 

[waxon]

They are in danger of making her the next Wesley. I wish they'd stop it.

She's like Wesley cranked up to 1 billion. There was at least a legitimate reason for Wesley to be on the ship and he wasn't in every single episode being brilliant - there was a much, much bigger cast so we didn't get so much of him. The writers have still not explained why we need a cadet on a starship. It seems there is nothing Tilly can't do. Next week I'm sure she'll be single handedly winning the war against the Klingons with little more than duct tape and chewing gum.

 

[Captain Killy]

I will confess.

I do not even know Tilly’s name.

We are x number of episodes in, and she has only one name in my head. I mean I am sure it’s written down somewhere, but....

Last time this happened in Trek it was Mayweather. We all know how that turned out.

Silvia. Cadet Silvia Tilly aka Tilly.

Much in the same way we collectively refer to Michael Burnham as Burnham, Gabriel Lorca as Lorca, Paul Stamets as Stamets, William T Riker as Riker, Deanna Troi as Troi, Jean-Luc Picard as Picard, Benjamin Lafayette Sisko as Sisko etc etc etc

 

[SJGardner]

There was at least a legitimate reason for Wesley to be on the ship

She is on her midshipman's cruise. As for what she is doing behind enemy lines, ask the Valiant's captain who decided it was a good idea to take a training ship into a war zone. Of course it could've been explained Lorca requested her transfer because he needed a Captain Killy, but it could also be he simply requested the best minds to work on Discovery's projects. It would be obviously really nice to have a scene in wich Tilly has the grave realization about the way Lorca used her, but I don't think there was a place for it since the reveal of the captain's origins. Even I don't think we'll get that scene though, I admit.

Tilly's been shown to be an expert on her field so it's easy to see why she's assigned to Stamets. We've also seen Burnham be assigned to the spore drive project despite being a convict, that's all the explanation I needed; evidently, Lorca sends everyone where they'd be of the most use to him, simple as that, rank be damned. Given that Tilly's apparently an expert in theoretical engineering I don't think we need it actually stated that she has a degree in it.

It seems there is nothing Tilly can't do.

Was there anything work-related she's done on screen that wasn't connected to the spore drive?

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Was there anything work-related she's done on screen that wasn't connected to the spore drive?

She's also good at space beer pong/3D beer pong.

 

[Tuvix5675]

none of those things are the case.

If that's what you honestly think, you need to watch the show more carefully.

 

[SJGardner]

She's also good at space beer pong/3D beer pong.

And she's steadily becoming a better runner as well.

 

[Nerys Myk]

If that's what you honestly think, you need to watch the show more carefully.

Provide examples. Seems like a simple enough task.

 

[Refuge]

The problem is that Episode 3 clearly showed that other people worked in the lab with Stamets. Given Tilly is just a cadet, some of them had to outrank her and have greater experience. But since that episode, you'd think that the drive was a two-person workplace from the way it's depicted.

Agreed. It is quite ridiculous just how pivotal a mere cadet has become. When she talked down Saru about Stamet's condition being a spore drive one instead of a medical one, I wasn't sure who looked more lame. Saru or this jumped up cadet calling the shots. Why isn't she running around the deck and reading text manuals off screen somewhere? I know! She's core cast and has to be everywhere.

 

[lawman]

I will confess. I do not even know Tilly’s name. We are x number of episodes in, and she has only one name in my head. I mean I am sure it’s written down somewhere, but....

Hey, at least we know she has one! Much as I love TOS, I can't deny it's ridiculous that Uhura and Sulu literally didn't get first names at all until the movie era...

I know it's not just you doing this, but I really wish people wouldn't respond to pointing out flaws in the writing by coming up with in-universe explanations.

I get your annoyance here — but I can relate to it in both directions. It's every bit as frustrating to be having a discussion framed in in-universe terms (say, about how some bits of continuity fit together), only to have someone weigh in with a reminder that it's all just the writers' (or designers', or studio's) fiat because it's fiction. (As if anyone thought otherwise!) Life would be much easier around these parts if people would take note of whether the conversation they're having is primarily diagetic or non-diagetic, Watsonian or Doyleist, and try not to derail it. (One of the things I like about Memory Alpha is how clearly it distinguishes these approaches.)

I never thought I was simply trying to rationalize away perceived flaws in the narrative because most of them I didn't perceive as such to begin with. There hasn't been much to date that would pull me out of the narrative.

Really? Wow, I'm kind of envious in a way. There hasn't been a single episode of this show that hasn't pulled me out of the narrative at least once or twice.

Of course, it's not just DSC; most shows (and movies) are like that. I figure it's kind of the unavoidable curse of being a heavy consumer of fiction (and genre fiction in particular — SF, super-heroes, etc.). I've watched so much material over the years that I've become familiar with lots of the recurring storytelling tropes, and learned a fair bit about the behind-the-scenes creative process as well, and I'm pretty analytical by disposition, so it's really hard not to notice how these things play out on screen. On the rare occasions that a work unreservedly inspires my suspension of disbelief and immerses me in its reality without any reservations or caveats, it's a welcome experience!...

 

[urbandefault]

When someone says something "pulled me out of the story" or similar, I get this visual that they're immersed in some big virtual world and are physically thrown across the room.

I giggle every time.

 

[Tuskin38]

She's like Wesley cranked up to 1 billion.

No she isn't.

 

[cooleddie74]

Even Wesley wasn't himself cranked up to 1 billion.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Tilly is a much more realistic character than Wesley ever was.

 

[XCV330]

She's like Wesley cranked up to 1 billion. There was at least a legitimate reason for Wesley to be on the ship and he wasn't in every single episode being brilliant - there was a much, much bigger cast so we didn't get so much of him. The writers have still not explained why we need a cadet on a starship. It seems there is nothing Tilly can't do. Next week I'm sure she'll be single handedly winning the war against the Klingons with little more than duct tape and chewing gum.

She isn't THAT bad. I actually like her character, but if this really is the belowdecks show, give some other people something to do once in awhile. She's on the ship because Lorca put her there. He needed Captain Killy, the Mirror Universe version of Tilly, for when they crossed over. That's why she's there.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The writers have still not explained why we need a cadet on a starship.

Tilly is on the command track, she needs experience in starship operations, so she takes a cadet cruise on Discovery while completing her studies at the Academy. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.

It's exactly the same as Saavik in ST II. She was a cadet, yet was taking a cruise on the Enterprise as part of her normal Academy curriculum.

On-the-job training, as it were.

 

[comradepitrovsky]

I will say that I really enjoyed this episode. Even if it had much less dance parties then Discovery episodes should.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

The writers have still not explained why we need a cadet on a starship.

You mean like Jim Kirk (both in TOS and the Kelvinverse)? Most of the Kelvinverse Enterprise crew? Saavik and the Enterprise cadet crew in TWoK? Wesley Crusher? Nog? The cadet crew on the USS Valiant? What's to explain?