Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x13 - "What's Past Is Prologue"

[matthunter]

There is a concept in the international law called universal jurisdiction which is that somebody can be prosecuted for things like genocide and war crimes regardless of where the crime took place and regardless of the nationality of the accused. I don't think it exclicitly states parallel universes but the principle would be the same.

Gets complicated with time travel and multiple realities though: "Yes, I killed Lt. Bob and Ensign Twatface in the divergent timeline but, in my defence, that restored OUR timeline where both are alive, Twatface is only SociallyAwkwardFace and Bob is expecting a child with his girlfriend who hated him in the divergent timeline. Also, your penis was two inches shorter in the other timeline, your Honour."

 

[Captain Killy]

Actually she fired on discovery after she knew it was not her discovery...

No she didn’t.

 

[Nyotarules]

If they agree to stop being so delicious, she'll agree to stop eating them.

It's a two-way street.

So if humans are tasty she can start eating herself lol

 

[cooleddie74]

This thread just took a turn into weird territory.





Well done.

 

[Tim Thomason]

The Federation is not at war with the Terran Empire. Emperor Georgiou has commited no act of violence against the Federation and in fact is there against her will. So you could say it’s Starfleet that’s committed the crime here. Regardless, there is absolutely no legal justification for locking her up in a jail cell.

I’m not saying she ain’t dangerous. She’s extremely dangerous. But throwing her into a dark pit and losing the key is hardly the answer here.

The Emperor held a Federation citizen (albeit a Starfleet prisoner on a work-release program, but a citizen nonetheless) against her will and threatened her with execution while denying access to diplomatic counsel (albeit they don't have foreign relations). That might not be a crime enough to violate sovereign immunity, but the Emperor believes she has been deposed, so legal action could be actionable at this point.

Now, yes, she has likely committed war crimes. But the Terran Empire is not a signatory to the 2155 Geneva Convention, neither are any of the entities she committed crimes against (barring Burnham as a Federation citizen). The murders of her lords that Burnham witnessed is probably acceptable, as she held jurisdiction over the Imperial Justice system and summary judgment is probably allowed. At the very least, it is an issue for the Empire to decide.

Burnham may have committed an act of kidnapping (another crime on the rap sheet), but more likely it was an act of rescue as she would've died on the Charon. After determining whether they have any recourse to hold her or try her (they probably don't), the Discovery or Starfleet ought to research returning her to the proper authorities in the other universe. They may have to delay this due to wartime concerns.

But if they can't return the Emperor, then they may have to pull a Picard in The Survivors ("We are not qualified to be your judges. You are free to go.").

 

[Tim Thomason]

There seems to be an emerging majority here thinking that the Federation has no authority over Mirror Georgiou, because of legal technicalities, which supposedly all seem to weigh in her favor. Even those who want to see her punished are mostly saying it's necessary "just because."

What I haven't heard anybody mention yet is the concept of universal jurisdiction. In present-day international law, it's understood that certain kinds of rights, duties, and norms exist erga omnes — that is, toward all — and that violations of such things are so grave that they don't stop at borders, and outweigh (frankly arbitrary) legalistic concerns such as geographic jurisdiction and national sovereignty. This includes offenses such as extrajudicial executions, war crimes, torture, crimes against humanity, and genocide. Where they were committed is beside the point: the concept is that any properly constituted government tribunal has the right to try and punish such offenses.

Interesting, but she's from outside the universe, so universal jurisdiction does not apply. What we're looking for is multiversal jurisdiction, which is probably not defined yet in interstellar law.

 

[Krandor]

Gets complicated with time travel and multiple realities though: "Yes, I killed Lt. Bob and Ensign Twatface in the divergent timeline but, in my defence, that restored OUR timeline where both are alive, Twatface is only SociallyAwkwardFace and Bob is expecting a child with his girlfriend who hated him in the divergent timeline. Also, your penis was two inches shorter in the other timeline, your Honour."

You are dealing with two different issues. One is the jurisdiction to bring an action against them and I do think the federation would have jurisdiction to bring an action against Georgio for actions done in the mirror universe of war crimes, genocide and the lilke.

The second issue is one of proof. That is the tricky one. You can have defense call a witness to the stand that is somebody she is supposed to have killed. The proving gets messy but in this case with the datacore and other infromation discovery has I think it could be done but won't be easy by any means.

 

[barryseymour]

and in PU there was a Discovery sister ship that was damaged by tardigrade/spore accident. Forgot the name of that ship, but is there a MU version of that ship?

The USS Glenn.

 

[Krandor]

After determining whether they have any recourse to hold her or try her (they probably don't), the Discovery or Starfleet ought to research returning her to the proper authorities in the other universe. They may have to delay this due to wartime concerns.

I think they do have jurisdiction to try her but regardless in your scenario what happens when she says she doesn't want to go back because it would in effect be a death sentence for her (which it would be). You can't just give her a house on earth and let her be on her way. That is endagering the federation and the federation way of life because she would not fit in and would likely try to turn people to her way.

 

[Tim Thomason]

The USS Glenn.

The ISS Glenn, named after the Terran astronaut who went into orbit to kill Yuri Gagarin.

 

[barryseymour]

I have a theory in my head that someone is going to say "the Burnham who betrayed Georgiou on the Shenzou was from the Mirror Universe!" Then Burnham would be a commander again.

I can't imagine Burnham going along with that - but then again the whole 'all is forgiven' tack won't hold much credibility either. (They did it with Kirk at the end of ST:4.)

 

[Bay17]

I haven't read to the end of this thread, so I apologize for stirring things up if you guys have attained world peace and settled all your differences through intelligent and rational dialog, which I suspect you're all just on the verge of doing based on how this thread is proceeding....

There's a lot of discussion about whether Burnham is or isn't a Mary-Sue. Who cares if she meets some technical definition of some made up term? The important thing is that she's "something". This would be a more interesting thread if everybody were focusing on that "something" instead of terminology.

From my point of view, the important thing is that I don't "like" her. That's not to imply a strong dislike, she doesn't offend my sensibilities because she's a strong, intelligent women of colour or whatever other arguments are getting tossed around. I just don't seem to care about her or whatever happens to her.

She staged the most poorly planned mutiny in the history of things worth executing somebody for, and then some other stuff happened to her for 10 more hours. Yay Burnham.

The other character that got the most development on the show literally just... just... I mean, seriously, he... What the hell?

If there's a more "Ok, we're done with this character, what's the quickest way to hoist him upon his own petard" lazy writing method in the history of petards than what they did with Lorca, I don't know what it is.

He may as well have just slipped on a banana peel into the mushroom-sun and saved us all some time.

Petards, man, always hoisting.

And the ending.....

"We have absolutely no information about what's going on, but it's quite clear from this detailed battle map that's updated in real time that the entire federation has been completely wiped out....."

*NEXT TIME ON STD*

"...has been completely wiped out of this neighbourhood, and forced to retreat over 13 steps in that direction. It's seriously inconvenient, because everybody liked going to the taco stand across the street for lunch, but now they've got a red corporate logo and people look at you funny if you go."

I suppose I'll be happy that the other crew members might get screen time, but if the comments I read about the writing being a "journey" to get the crew to this point are right, then the writers are pretty full of themselves. It hasn't been a journey. They did some crap, stuff blowed up real nice, END SCENE. Maybe they'll dust off some Trek scripts for the next little bit and remember that they have other actors on the show.

I started off not liking the show. Mid-season I started giving it a chance and changing my mind. Then this episode happened and I'm one more episode away from giving up on it. If they go Trekkish, I'll stick around. If they go .... whatever this was, then I'll step out for a few seasons and see if it finds its place.

This x100

I’m hoping Lorca is done and doesn’t come back in any form

12 episodes of the bridge crew being given no dialogue, no real interaction, no character development just so the writers can say “but that’s because Lorca didn’t let them!”? When that was not shown in any way through the 12 episodes, and in fact Lorca was shown praising how good they were and they seemed ok with that

12 episodes of Lorca being shown as an independent, flawed but charismatic and intriguing character and leader, then in one episode being shown to be a one dimensional racist fuckhead?

As good an actor as Isaacs is I don’t want Lorca back in any form. I’m happy to have plot twists, but I want an engaging, complex, gritty story that makes sense and drives an overall narrative rather than being thrown a sugary treat every now and then by bringing back a “favourite actor” so fans can say “oh look it’s so-and-so, but now he’s a good guy, and you can tell because he’s got a goatee!”

Stop breaking the fourth wall with winks and nods and reappearances to cover up the fact that your writing and character development is crap so you have to to have bright shiny objects to look at. Mirror Georgiou and Landry are nothing but that. I don’t want to see Michelle Yeo again for the sake of seeing her play a baddie. I want a strong story with interesting ongoing characters

Give me 4 seasons of Saru’s development any day. Show me how the ship performs in combat. Get the bridge crew to interact with each other in substantial ways.

Just don’t give me “ooh look Lorca’s back!” instead

 

[Longinus]

12 episodes of the bridge crew being given no dialogue, no real interaction, no character development just so the writers can say “but that’s because Lorca didn’t let them!”? When that was not shown in any way through the 12 episodes, and in fact Lorca was shown praising how good they were and they seemed ok with that

Indeed. I really don't know whether the writers are lying or are they really this clueless about what actually happens in the show they have written.

It was complete waste to bring Detmer from Shenzhou on Discovery, wounded in a battle that was (sort of but not really) Burnham's fault, and then give her zero dialogue with Burnham.

 

[Nyotarules]

POW, enemy combatant... doesn't matter what you call it. She needs to be locked up.

The Allies er I mean The Federation are going to old their noses and make nice with Comrade StalinMao er The Emperor

 

[Nyotarules]

It's unlikely that you could keep her locked up forever without a trial, though. We do that sort of thing, but does the Federation? Can't even claim that she's an enemy of the Federation except in a thought-crime sense.

It'd be an interesting trial. I suppose the Klingon logs on Terran Empire history could be entered as evidence, and the Discovery crew did see her ship pulverize that rebel planet.

Prime Directive Picard style..... they cannot touch her. They can give her red shirt escorts (but she can kick their butts and escape). PG will go out in a blaze of glory since she is an extreme, Terran racist there is no way she can live in the Federation or anyway else, it would drive her insane. That's it ship her to Risa....her version of hell!

 

[Nyotarules]

Actually she fired on discovery after she knew it was not her discovery so actually yes she did commit violence against the federation.

Either way somebody like that you find a way to lock them up for the safety of everybody.

Especially Kelpians....

 

[Bay17]

It was complete waste to bring Detmer from Shenzhou on Discovery, wounded in a battle that was (sort of but not really) Burnham's fault, and then give her zero dialogue with Burnham.

Exactly. When Detmer first sees Burnham there’s a look of shock and blame and then - nothing. Burnham’s this reviled mutineer who was responsible for the deaths and injuries of many people, but no one actually brings it up with her. She shows some self loathing but after some initial awkwardness everyone else is a supporter of her and no one is against her. Where’s the interpersonal conflict that drives character and plot development?

I watched both seasons of Stranger Things over the weekend. More engaging character development among four teenage kids than in the whole cast of Discovery.

 

[Nyotarules]

Gets complicated with time travel and multiple realities though: "Yes, I killed Lt. Bob and Ensign Twatface in the divergent timeline but, in my defence, that restored OUR timeline where both are alive, Twatface is only SociallyAwkwardFace and Bob is expecting a child with his girlfriend who hated him in the divergent timeline. Also, your penis was two inches shorter in the other timeline, your Honour."

Exactly, Mudd should have been arrested for piracy, hijacking, multiple murders but since the timeline was fixed send him home to his wife instead..

 

[Tim Thomason]

I think they do have jurisdiction to try her but regardless in your scenario what happens when she says she doesn't want to go back because it would in effect be a death sentence for her (which it would be). You can't just give her a house on earth and let her be on her way. That is endagering the federation and the federation way of life because she would not fit in and would likely try to turn people to her way.

Well, it's possible that since the Federation has no death penalty (outside of Talos IV), they might have a policy against extradition to death penalty jurisdictions. Which is a relief to those concerned with the feasibility of future multiversal travel. In that case, she would be free to live freely. The Federation, as her rescuers, are probably obliged to keep her within their territory, and that is especially a good idea if concerned of her background.

Earth is probably too full to grant her a house. But it would be a good choice, given that Star Trek '09 implied a police state capable of maintaining a watchful presence. A starship or space station would be better (outside of the Botany Bay solution, which might be a non-starter). In either case, she's very dangerous.

The best case scenario would be a psych evaluation (especially since she's a wartime leader possibly prone to PSD herself). If they determine that she's sociopathic or homicidal, then TOS showed us that there are many tools available to 'normalize' her in this era.

 

[Nyotarules]

They can get Sarek to do a Tuvok on her psychopathic mind. Turn her into a florist on some Federation frontier.