Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x13 - "What's Past Is Prologue"

[lawman]

Some interesting back-and-forth here!...

Should they trust her? Hell, no. Should they ever give her any position of authority? Hell, no. Should they keep her on a tight leash? Hell, yes. But, as of right now, they have zero standing to impose actual penalty for anything. She hasn't committed any crimes in their universe.

This. Technically she’s a disposed head-of-state in exile, so diplomatic niceties and all that. ... She either has to return to her Universe or go out in a blaze of glory so big it makes the Hobus event look like a campfire by comparison. ... Regardless, there is absolutely no legal justification for locking her up in a jail cell.

I'm pretty sure even in the future, what she's done in the MU could easily be considered a crime, im sure especially in the future there would be some concept akin to human rights.

Georgiou committed horrible acts in her own universe, yes. But the Federation has no jurisdiction there. They would have no legal standing to imprison her. ...
If anything, she is a prisoner of war, and thus must be accorded the same rights as any POW would - which, in her case, means she must be returned to the mirror universe posthaste.

Many people accused of war crimes refuse to recognize the authority of the court to convict them. They get convicted anyway. ...
There's a danger to extending the standards of today too far, especially when it comes to things like jurisdictional standing.

There seems to be an emerging majority here thinking that the Federation has no authority over Mirror Georgiou, because of legal technicalities, which supposedly all seem to weigh in her favor. Even those who want to see her punished are mostly saying it's necessary "just because."

What I haven't heard anybody mention yet is the concept of universal jurisdiction. In present-day international law, it's understood that certain kinds of rights, duties, and norms exist erga omnes — that is, toward all — and that violations of such things are so grave that they don't stop at borders, and outweigh (frankly arbitrary) legalistic concerns such as geographic jurisdiction and national sovereignty. This includes offenses such as extrajudicial executions, war crimes, torture, crimes against humanity, and genocide. Where they were committed is beside the point: the concept is that any properly constituted government tribunal has the right to try and punish such offenses.

Given everything we know about the United Federation of Planets and the extremely high value it puts on the fundamental rights of all sentient beings, I find it impossible to believe that it would not have taken the concept of universal jurisdiction and extended it to the interstellar arena... and frankly, in all likelihood, expanded it.

And oh, look, here's someone who's committed pretty much all of the offenses that trigger it! And she's done so as both an individual and a head of state! Plus there's literally no other state that could claim jurisdiction — the state she represented is currently both leaderless and inaccessible.

It's not as if she just stole a bicycle or something. What you have here is not a recipe for "whoops, we have no jurisdiction over her, guess we gotta let her go." It's a recipe for "put her on trial, throw the book at her, and make her pay for her crimes for the rest of her natural life." I realize due process of law is not usually seen to be as dramatically satisfying as sending someone out in the proverbial Blaze Of Glory, but in this case it's both the morally and legally right thing to do.

 

[Noname Given]

I'd like to see more of him, too. But, looking at it from his perspective, that seems like a tough gig with a lot of potential pitfalls. How do you make "vanilla" Lorca as interesting and compelling as Mirror Lorca without repeating yourself?

I hope it's a challenge he finds intriguing, but I'm guessing he's done.

Could they bring him back for a guest spot in a future episode (as EITHER the MU Lorca we know <--- Possible given the way he dematerialized into the Mycelial Network or as PU Lorca)? Sure. But it's pretty obvious from his comments he isn't/wasn't interested in a long term series commitment to ST: D. Remember, this move by CBS had as much chance for failure (and just one season) as it did for success. yes, CBS managed to get Netflix to shoulder the lions hare of the Production cost so CBS would make money with the show regardless; but if it didn't bring a ton of new subscribers - to CBSAA - and by all accounts it has and performed better than they expected - Les Moonves would have dumped it after one season fast.

I will say I wish they had some showrunners who actually liked and could really run with the optimizes offered by setting the show in the TOS era. - like say Manny Coto and maybe Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens because the showrunners currently in charge don't seem to care much for a lot of TOS era elements based on a lot of their comments and the series so far. They like to pay a lot of lip service to TOS fans, but given what I've seen, they're disingenuous when they say they're 'TOS fans too.'

 

[Krandor]

I will say I wish they had some showrunners who actually liked and could really run with the optimizes offered by setting the show in the TOS era. - like say Manny Coto and maybe Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens because the showrunners currently in charge don't seem to care much for a lot of TOS era elements based on a lot of their comments and the series so far. They like to pay a lot of lip service to TOS fans, but given what I've seen, they're disingenuous when they say they're 'TOS fans too.'

They can like TOS and be TOS fans and also know discovery can't be star trek continues. The two are not mutually exclusive. I like TOS . I like STC... I don't want DSC to be like those. I want it to be its own thing.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I realize due process of law is not usually seen to be as dramatically satisfying as sending someone out in the proverbial Blaze Of Glory, but in this case it's both the morally and legally right thing to do.

So you'll agree that even the Empress herself must be given that right?

 

[XCV330]

I think the EMperor will come to some understanding with Prime Sarek that leads to Spock becoming a starfleet officer when she returns.

 

[Nyotarules]

However, In 'Yesterday's Enterprise' they were losing.

Because their Discovery ended up in another universe?

 

[Krandor]

So you'll agree that even the Empress herself must be given that right?

Sure put her on trial but she gets held without bond until then.

 

[lawman]

So you'll agree that even the Empress herself must be given that right?

Due process? Of course. I don't understand the winky emoji here.

 

[Spot261]

I'd submit she isn't subject to federation law and as no treaties or international/interstellar conventions exist to cover both universes she cannot be tried for acting in a way that was not only legal but actively encouraged within her own jurisdiction.

No obvious instance springs to mind of the federation pursuing perpetrators of war crimes within other non aligned cultures unless expressly asked to do so or within the context of some conflict or dispute. On the contrary in most instances they would be willing to at least consider asylum if requested even if that person was alleged to be a criminal within their own culture.

She is not an enemy combatant, she is not even a representative of an enemy state, she is a leader in exile.

 

[Krandor]

I'd submit she isn't subject to federation law and as no treaties or international/interstellar conventions exist to cover both universes she cannot be tried for acting in a way that was not only legal but actively encouraged within her own jurisdiction.

No obvious instance springs to mind of the federation pursuing perpetrators of war crimes within other non aligned cultures unless expressly asked to do so or within the context of some conflict or dispute. On the contrary in most instances they would be willing to at least consider asylum if requested even if that person was alleged to be a criminal within their own culture.

She is not an enemy combatant, she is not even a representative of an enemy state, she is a leader in exile.

I disagree on all that but in your opinion what should the federation do with her then? Give her a ship?

 

[Spot261]

I disagree on all that but in your opinion what should the federation do with her then? Give her a ship?

Treat her as we have seen them do with countless foreign dignitaries and diplomats, offer her quarters and give her limited access to ship facilities such that she can live in relative comfort without being a security risk until some better arrangement can be reached whilst biting their tongues about her previous activities and extending every courtesy.

Of course this will in practise go horribly wrong with her bypassing security, stealing a phaser, taking over the ship, etc but the show would be boring if that didn't happen

 

[Noname Given]

They can like TOS and be TOS fans and also know discovery can't be star trek continues. The two are not mutually exclusive. I like TOS . I like STC... I don't want DSC to be like those. I want it to be its own thing.

Who's expecting "Star Trek Continues"? Not me. Like I've sauid in other threads, it's the coomplete lack of even a nod to "The Cage" era uniforms in any shots (on or off the Discovery herself) and none of the Fed ships or Klingon ships even really give a nod to any of the original Fed or Klingon designs. I have no problem with the look of the Discovery internally or externally or ANY of the new ships we never saw before - but in a WAR sretting with the ENTIRE fleet supposedly involved; you think we'd catch a glimpse of a Constitution/Starship Class vessel of one of a Klingon ship that lookls somethiong like a classic D& if just for a second; but no. And why? By their own comments the showrunners find these designs 'cheap lookingt' (doesn't matter BOTH DS9 and ENT were able to use modern SFX tech o0f their respective eras to show the designs still work well and can look good - but no.

And again, if the showrunners were just plain honest up front and said, hey, we are doing some rebooting here - but they were always adamant that this show takes place in the actual PU of TOS and to 'trust them..' yet with two epsidoes left, nope not onwe real even minor visual nod to anythikng ship design wise.

Again, I'm NOT asking for a 100% TOS redux here - but not even one real nod 13 episodes in. No these guys just want to pat lip service and nothing more.

 

[Lonemagpie]

How big of her.

Honestly, I think that comment was there to try to draw parralels to Israel/Palestine

I thought it more Trump/Obama, US/Mexico, myself

 

[137th Gebirg]

I'd submit she isn't subject to federation law and as no treaties or international/interstellar conventions exist to cover both universes she cannot be tried for acting in a way that was not only legal but actively encouraged within her own jurisdiction.

No obvious instance springs to mind of the federation pursuing perpetrators of war crimes within other non aligned cultures unless expressly asked to do so or within the context of some conflict or dispute. On the contrary in most instances they would be willing to at least consider asylum if requested even if that person was alleged to be a criminal within their own culture.

She is not an enemy combatant, she is not even a representative of an enemy state, she is a leader in exile.

It's kind of similar to when Picard told Uxbridge, "we have no law to fit your crime", or something like that. Slightly different situation, considering that, if Picard really pissed off Uxbridge, he could just erase the entire Federation with a thought.

But I would think that the rules of the Federation apply only to the Federation citizenry within that universe. Now, someone could conceivably argue that Georgiou might have committed crimes against Federation citizens (USS Discovery) while in Imperial Space under her control, but it still begs the question if Federation Law has jurisdiction within other universes/empires. I honestly don't think it does. If there is no law specifying that they have the right to prosecute members of organizations in other universes and/or parallel dimensions (who, honestly, on the Federation Council would have thought such a law necessary prior to this?), then Picard's statement could arguably apply to Georgiou's defense strategy.

Interesting legal question that may very well be addressed. Any law-dogs here care to take a shot at it?

 

[Krandor]

Treat her as we have seen them do with countless foreign dignitaries and diplomats, offer her quarters and give her limited access to ship facilities such that she can live in relative comfort without being a security risk until some better arrangement can be reached whilst biting their tongues about her previous activities and extending every courtesy.

You can't keep her on the ship. She has to be dropped off somewhere. But where?

 

[ItIsGreen]

if Picard really pissed off Uxbridge, he could just erase the entire Federation with a thought.

Yeah, but Q would (probably) bring it back.

 

[Wulf]

I haven't read to the end of this thread, so I apologize for stirring things up if you guys have attained world peace and settled all your differences through intelligent and rational dialog, which I suspect you're all just on the verge of doing based on how this thread is proceeding....

There's a lot of discussion about whether Burnham is or isn't a Mary-Sue. Who cares if she meets some technical definition of some made up term? The important thing is that she's "something". This would be a more interesting thread if everybody were focusing on that "something" instead of terminology.

From my point of view, the important thing is that I don't "like" her. That's not to imply a strong dislike, she doesn't offend my sensibilities because she's a strong, intelligent women of colour or whatever other arguments are getting tossed around. I just don't seem to care about her or whatever happens to her.

She staged the most poorly planned mutiny in the history of things worth executing somebody for, and then some other stuff happened to her for 10 more hours. Yay Burnham.

The other character that got the most development on the show literally just... just... I mean, seriously, he... What the hell?

If there's a more "Ok, we're done with this character, what's the quickest way to hoist him upon his own petard" lazy writing method in the history of petards than what they did with Lorca, I don't know what it is.

He may as well have just slipped on a banana peel into the mushroom-sun and saved us all some time.

Petards, man, always hoisting.

And the ending.....

"We have absolutely no information about what's going on, but it's quite clear from this detailed battle map that's updated in real time that the entire federation has been completely wiped out....."

*NEXT TIME ON STD*

"...has been completely wiped out of this neighbourhood, and forced to retreat over 13 steps in that direction. It's seriously inconvenient, because everybody liked going to the taco stand across the street for lunch, but now they've got a red corporate logo and people look at you funny if you go."

I suppose I'll be happy that the other crew members might get screen time, but if the comments I read about the writing being a "journey" to get the crew to this point are right, then the writers are pretty full of themselves. It hasn't been a journey. They did some crap, stuff blowed up real nice, END SCENE. Maybe they'll dust off some Trek scripts for the next little bit and remember that they have other actors on the show.

I started off not liking the show. Mid-season I started giving it a chance and changing my mind. Then this episode happened and I'm one more episode away from giving up on it. If they go Trekkish, I'll stick around. If they go .... whatever this was, then I'll step out for a few seasons and see if it finds its place.

 

[Krandor]

It's kind of similar to when Picard told Uxbridge, "we have no law to fit your crime", or something like that. Slightly different situation, considering that, if Picard really pissed off Uxbridge, he could just erase the entire Federation with a thought.

But I would think that the rules of the Federation apply only to the Federation citizenry within that universe. Now, someone could conceivably argue that Georgiou might have committed crimes against Federation citizens (USS Discovery) while in Imperial Space under her control, but it still begs the question if Federation Law has jurisdiction within other universes/empires. I honestly don't think it does. If there is no law specifying that they have the right to prosecute members of organizations in other universes and/or parallel dimensions (who, honestly, on the Federation Council would have thought such a law necessary prior to this?), then Picard's statement could arguably apply to Georgiou's defense strategy.

Interesting legal question that may very well be addressed. Any law-dogs here care to take a shot at it?

There is a concept in the international law called universal jurisdiction which is that somebody can be prosecuted for things like genocide and war crimes regardless of where the crime took place and regardless of the nationality of the accused. I don't think it exclicitly states parallel universes but the principle would be the same.

 

[Nyotarules]

This. Technically she’s a disposed head-of-state in exile, so diplomatic niceties and all that. They can’t lock her in the brig as she’s committed no crime. OTOH, they can’t let her run around free because, well, evil. But what they can do is listen to her. One of her titles is Dominus of Kronos. The Terrans defeated the Klingons. She knows how to fight them and beat them. Of course Starfleet being Starfleet can’t go to the extremes the Terrans did to conquer the Klingons, but the Emperor can still provide excellent tactical advise.

The biggest question remains however, what’s going to happen to her? I suspect personally, that they’ll use her presence to make the ISS Discovery stand down. At some point The Emperor will beam over to the ISS Discovery where she, Captain Killy and the rest of the Mirror Discovery crew will jump back to the MU. The Emperor having been inspired, however slightly, by the Federation will begin to take back her throne and initiate reforms which will result in Mirror Spock being able to join the Imperial Starfleet and eventually rise to become second officer of the ISS Enterprise.

And stop eating sentient beings.....?

 

[Wulf]

And stop eating sentient beings.....?

If they agree to stop being so delicious, she'll agree to stop eating them.

It's a two-way street.