I thought the sets were unrealistically big? The complaints on this show are certainly varied.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x13 - "What's Past Is Prologue"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
I think neither is GoT similar to DSC, nor does it strive to be.
Your points are perfectly made. DSC is kind of "its own thing" on that front.
we had one (1) self-contained episode so far
It's easy to have big sets on a sound stage. My issue with Discovery's sets is they seem fake and "stagey." You don't really see people moving through the ships frequently (and when you do, it's the same corridors redressed) and we really only keep seeing the same five or so rooms on the Discovery. Arguably this isn't very different from past Trek series of course (other than maybe DS9, which had a lot of sets due to the static location) but certainly compared to GoT, where on-location shooting gives a sense of real geometry of space, it doesn't feel that realistic.
I meant self-contained in the sense that the episode has a resolution of the main plotline, even if there is a cliffhanger heading into the next episode.
Structurally, this is very different from GoT, where in a given episode you "check in" on a half-dozen different arcs, none of which reach any real resolution in a given week.
If you look really close at GoT, you'll see that it's not much different than a soap opera. Sure, they have some nice location shooting that give it scope and grandeur, but ultimately about 80% of it is filmed on interior sets with a few characters having a discussion. Cut to another small indoor set with a few characters having a discussion. Cut again. Show some outdoor stuff. Then cut back to the first set, and show the results of and/or a continuation of the original discussion.
GoT just hides it well, but if you look for it, it's pretty limited too. A few "big episodes" open it up and make it feel bigger, and they do an excellent job of that, no question.
Yeah, I was thinking it might be something purposeful like that too, rather than simply a comms failure due to losing vast amounts of territory in the war. Maybe Starfleet deliberately didn't answer their hails because the ISS Discovery has been running around wreaking havoc on the Prime Starfleet for the past nine months and now Starfleet isn't sure what to make of this Discovery's hail just yet.
My overall point though is that Game of Thrones is designed to be - well - epic in scope. Discovery just isn't, even if they use things like the Klingon War as a plot device. It's the story of Micheal Burnham's character. Either they didn't aim to make an epic story to begin with, or they failed in this execution (likely due to budgetary reasons).
respectfully disagree.
We still have about 5 seasons of original Martin...
BTW, new space opera TV show written by Martin is coming. There will be something to compare with DSC.
That would be insulting to all the successful MCU films. Feige handles the MCU with great heart and he is a strong fan of the material. The films are universally loved.
I love good comic book films, but I dislike STD. The producers lack the same love and respect for the source material, and obviously are pushing their own sociopolitical agenda.
If anything, what we saw yesterday was more in line with the cheesy CW DC shows, at their worst. Especially that silly overly choreographed final fight and all the awkward character moments.
This was my least favorite episode of this new Trek series. Every episodes on any series can't be a 7, 8 or 9. A lot of action but this time the dialogue was cringe-worthy for me. Still, it provides a satisfying "end" to the mirror universe with a good cliffhanger for things to come.
There's different way to review any new Trek series. Personally, I would love another TNG series with the aesthetic and tone of Discovery. Especially in the aspects that make TNG similar to Doctor Who, Stargate SG1, Sliders (exploration of humanity) with some kind of intellectual edge. For that, you need writers who have knowledge and have things to say about the current state of humanity (social, philosophy, religion, history, personal drama and life, economic systems, politics, technology, etc) and the future. Usually by exploring all facets (both sides) of dilemmas and the events happening to the crew and the people they meet and situations they face. For example, we can all understand why some Alien planet could kill their children affected by disabilities at birth or during life or battlefields. It could makes sense from the point of view of a completely different culture. You can make an action-adventure episode or mini-series touching the issue or just solid character drama, mystery/suspense episodes touching the issue. That's not what Discovery is and will become.
The other way to review any new Trek series, it by itself. It is it a fun TV show you want to watch? It doesn't matter if it's not as good as previous Trek series. You hope the good things in previous Trek series influence this new series but overall you judge the series by itself. As any new TV shows.
For me, Discovery is not a series that tries to explore the current state of humanity and the future like previous Trek series. I see it as an action-adventure sci-fi series in the same style as JJ Abrams movies. The possibilities are there for great action, good dialogues, sense of adventure, beautiful and spectacular scenery, limited exploration of humanity through sci-fi, heroism, etc. All great fun.
Taking that into account my constructive criticism about this series would be to stop using one dimensional villains. The Mirror Universe Villains were pretty much one dimensional. Some people in this thread used the mustache twirling evil-laugh villain analogy, which I think is appropriate for the series antagonists thus far. It was the case with MU Lorca, Georgiou, as well as the Klingons.
One my favorite part of DS9 was when the station was under Dominion/Cardassian control at the beginning of season 6. Previous DS9 episodes dealing the Jem'Hadar and their sense of loyalty, dealing with the Changeling and Odo, Cardassian and Garak were also as good and big part of it. I think the Dominion (Changeling, Jem'hadar, Vorta) were formidable antagonists. The war and actions made sense to themselves. They were not evil just to be evil because there's no other choice. They were basically defending themselves in a pre-emptive strike (even if they didn't have much justification for it iirc), the rest was based on how their society was built and history. What was great to see was the interactions between the Founder, Jem'hadar, Dukat/Dumas/Cardassian and the various Vorta. Seeing the antagonists interact between themselves, provided some depth to the whole story. Then it was great to see them interacts with the DS9 crew. There could have been more of it but what went on was great. On the other hand, the Klingons by themselves were always cartoonish in many ways, no matter how many episodes were dedicated to them. Shouting "honor" at whoever would listen but without any depth, and sense to their society and way of thinking. How could those basically drunken Vikings (caricature of Vikings) ever became one of the main space worthy species is beyond comprehension (even if it's explained in the show). Even if it would be logical, they were one dimensional, cardboard and boring. Same with Dukat at the end of DS9, when he became some kind of crazy prophet. He became cartoonist and one dimensional. The writing of it was bad.
So even as a action-adventure sci-fi series mixing Abrams movies and previous Trek series. I think it would be great for the series to provide us with antagonists characters and species with more depth. Less one dimensional and cartoonish villains. It think it's constructive criticism because it's in the same style (same writing room, same writing style) as the current Discovery series. Just better with minor adjustments. It's also possible the series is already heading in that direction. Voq, L'Rell, Sarek, Vulcans as a species, Federation/Admirals, all have hints that it's possible to build on those characters, motivation, etc. They could become great antagonists with the foundation we have thus far. Then of course L'Rell can turn around and say "I will kill all of you for the glory of the empire!" or some other nonsensical cartoonish motivation. It's wait and see but I'm enjoying the series thus far. The dialogues and action were great in previous episodes. This one was probably my least favorite (although the first couples at the beginning were as bad too iirc, I forgot a bit about them). Looking forward to next week. The interactions we saw in the preview *spoilers* between Sarek, the Federation, L'Rell, Voq could be great and be in line with providing antagonists with more depth.
*this shortened reply was part of a 33-pages dissertation about this Discovery episode
There's different way to review any new Trek series. Personally, I would love another TNG series with the aesthetic and tone of Discovery. Especially in the aspects that make TNG similar to Doctor Who, Stargate SG1, Sliders (exploration of humanity) with some kind of intellectual edge. For that, you need writers who have knowledge and have things to say about the current state of humanity (social, philosophy, religion, history, personal drama and life, economic systems, politics, technology, etc) and the future. Usually by exploring all facets (both sides) of dilemmas and the events happening to the crew and the people they meet and situations they face. For example, we can all understand why some Alien planet could kill their children affected by disabilities at birth or during life or battlefields. It could makes sense from the point of view of a completely different culture. You can make an action-adventure episode or mini-series touching the issue or just solid character drama, mystery/suspense episodes touching the issue. That's not what Discovery is and will become.
The other way to review any new Trek series, it by itself. It is it a fun TV show you want to watch? It doesn't matter if it's not as good as previous Trek series. You hope the good things in previous Trek series influence this new series but overall you judge the series by itself. As any new TV shows.
For me, Discovery is not a series that tries to explore the current state of humanity and the future like previous Trek series. I see it as an action-adventure sci-fi series in the same style as JJ Abrams movies. The possibilities are there for great action, good dialogues, sense of adventure, beautiful and spectacular scenery, limited exploration of humanity through sci-fi, heroism, etc. All great fun.
Taking that into account my constructive criticism about this series would be to stop using one dimensional villains. The Mirror Universe Villains were pretty much one dimensional. Some people in this thread used the mustache twirling evil-laugh villain analogy, which I think is appropriate for the series antagonists thus far. It was the case with MU Lorca, Georgiou, as well as the Klingons.
One my favorite part of DS9 was when the station was under Dominion/Cardassian control at the beginning of season 6. Previous DS9 episodes dealing the Jem'Hadar and their sense of loyalty, dealing with the Changeling and Odo, Cardassian and Garak were also as good and big part of it. I think the Dominion (Changeling, Jem'hadar, Vorta) were formidable antagonists. The war and actions made sense to themselves. They were not evil just to be evil because there's no other choice. They were basically defending themselves in a pre-emptive strike (even if they didn't have much justification for it iirc), the rest was based on how their society was built and history. What was great to see was the interactions between the Founder, Jem'hadar, Dukat/Dumas/Cardassian and the various Vorta. Seeing the antagonists interact between themselves, provided some depth to the whole story. Then it was great to see them interacts with the DS9 crew. There could have been more of it but what went on was great. On the other hand, the Klingons by themselves were always cartoonish in many ways, no matter how many episodes were dedicated to them. Shouting "honor" at whoever would listen but without any depth, and sense to their society and way of thinking. How could those basically drunken Vikings (caricature of Vikings) ever became one of the main space worthy species is beyond comprehension (even if it's explained in the show). Even if it would be logical, they were one dimensional, cardboard and boring. Same with Dukat at the end of DS9, when he became some kind of crazy prophet. He became cartoonist and one dimensional. The writing of it was bad.
So even as a action-adventure sci-fi series mixing Abrams movies and previous Trek series. I think it would be great for the series to provide us with antagonists characters and species with more depth. Less one dimensional and cartoonish villains. It think it's constructive criticism because it's in the same style (same writing room, same writing style) as the current Discovery series. Just better with minor adjustments. It's also possible the series is already heading in that direction. Voq, L'Rell, Sarek, Vulcans as a species, Federation/Admirals, all have hints that it's possible to build on those characters, motivation, etc. They could become great antagonists with the foundation we have thus far. Then of course L'Rell can turn around and say "I will kill all of you for the glory of the empire!" or some other nonsensical cartoonish motivation. It's wait and see but I'm enjoying the series thus far. The dialogues and action were great in previous episodes. This one was probably my least favorite (although the first couples at the beginning were as bad too iirc, I forgot a bit about them). Looking forward to next week. The interactions we saw in the preview *spoilers* between Sarek, the Federation, L'Rell, Voq could be great and be in line with providing antagonists with more depth.
*this shortened reply was part of a 33-pages dissertation about this Discovery episode
Last edited:
That was Mirror Stamets and Prime Stamets assessment, but they were not necessarily right. They don't fully understand it. On the other hand, yes why doesn't some nihilistic (non-organic) cult try to kill it again in the future? Same reason no one ever makes a genesis torpedo factory, I suppose. Or maybe Lorca is right and Fate is a property of the universe, a flip-side to the panpsychism hypothesis. In every possible universe where someone tries to kill the spore network, someone or something is bound to prevent it because that action is as much a part of the makeup of things as the bones and sinews of the universe itself. There nice and tidy and a tad Calvinist.
Doesn't remind me of the MCU. Maybe Zack Snyder's take on Watchmen, which I loved and a lot of people hated.
Why? Should the war be a constant stalemate with the lines never changing? Most of Europe fell to the Axis in WWII. The Allies had to take it back inch by inch.
What if all that's left of Starfleet, besides Disco, is round-nacelled Connies with multicolor uniformed crews at this point?
Oh I definitely agree with that. Much worse than that is his team who he said was in a booth for over 500 days and they seemed to have no effects whatsoever as they are taking over the ship. That’s yet another big issue with this episode.
The Defiant was also the motivation for them going to the Shenzhou and then the emperor's ship because they thought they needed the info to get home, until MU Georgiou correctly informed them that there would be a temporal component if they used that method.
More away missions would take care of that, I think. Hope they get more of those. I don't care of it's a sound stage with matte painting and rubber rocks, I like planet visits.
I also really love they brought back communications by viewscreen in this episode.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!?
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
- Poll
