Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x13 - "What's Past Is Prologue"

[GeekUSACarl]

No. Other people might have been arguing that, but I wasn't.

Then we are back to nothing is being pushed onto you or anyone and isaacs isn't wasted by not being the lead.

A story was conceived with a woman named michael as our protagonist and a villain named lorca as our villain. Isaacs was cast as Lorca and Green was cast as Michael.

Isaacs was never going to be Michael. He was the bad guy, he didn't play the lead character and couldn't. Nobody would buy him as a woman anyway.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It pretty much has to since even if the Feds do bounce back and win, having the Feds almost being conquered by the Klingons, is not canon.

It is now. That's how canon works.

Eh, canon is overrated. Give me a good story. Plus... the Vulcans were apparently conquered.

Well that is canon. McCoy said so.

 

[cooleddie74]

To be fair I never thought Isaacs would be the series lead to begin with. The show technically has two leads: Martin-Green and Isaacs. Hell, we originally thought that this would be a serialized show with a different crew and captain every few weeks so if Isaacs leaves the scene until his counterpart from our universe shows up alive then I'm fine with that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Canon is like the Prime Directive. It cannot be broken. It is fixed.

Not at all. Canon (actually continuity) is mutable.

 

[ISS-Magnum]

By the way, Commander Airiam. I thought she would be an interesting character. But now I just want her to be silent and return to some dark corner of the ship. Sorry, I just hate the sound of her voice.

 

[eschaton]

It's worth noting that while Isaacs was not the lead, it's arguable that even though Burham was the focal/main character, Lorca was the true protagonist over the last 10 episodes. Yes, Burnham almost always saved the day in some way from week to week, but the overarching plot was all set in motion due to the actions of Lorca - even if it wasn't entirely clear at the moment we were viewing it.

 

[Isolar]

Sullivan also said something like "now that Jason is off the show I can say this" and then quickly corrected himself with "I mean off of After Trek." Hmmm...

 

[XCV330]

By the way, Commander Airiam. I thought she would be an interesting character. But now I just want her to be silent and return to some dark corner of the ship. Sorry, I just hate the sound of her voice.

I just want her to describe the ship's orbit so she can get all Daft Punk and start saying "around the world around the world around the world.."

 

[Ometiklan]

They analyzed that debris and probably would've noticed um.. Terran parts matching their ship. It just doesn't seem likely to me. If there's no clue or hint next episode, then I shall expect them to return when Discovery feels the need for more mirror madness.

To me it seemed like a large enough debris field that they could have missed it. I am just going off that one short clip from next week, but it's my impression.

Well. That was disappointing...

Bleah. I was really, really hoping for better.

Wow, paraphrasing what Luke says to both Rey and Ren, I basically disagree with every point you made.

I really liked pretty much everything that happened, enjoyed the characters, the fights, the storyline, and am really looking forward to seeing what happens in the war next week. On a side note, has there ever been real belief that the Federation could be destroyed in Trek? Ever? No, not even during the Dominion War and thus it is the journey that is important and not the destination. It would suck if you don't like the journey though.

 

[Tim Thomason]

By the way, Commander Airiam. I thought she would be an interesting character. But now I just want her to be silent and return to some dark corner of the ship. Sorry, I just hate the sound of her voice.

Yeah, she might want to turn the reverb down on her auto-tune.

Still my favorite character on the show. Love me some Airiam.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Sad that you're so easily triggered. But I can recall multiple instances during the press junket where the producers mentioned the socio-political intentions with the series and what they were trying to push. They weren't shy about doing that.

Given that, sadly there's no way Jason Isaacs could have played a respectable authority figure, or even a hero.

Amusingly he was a villain, and not even a very good or memorable villain sadly. I knew he'd be defeated and killed so unceremoniously, in the interest of elevating other characters.

You know, I think it's important to appreciate that all those who use childish labels like "social justice warrior" (a label incidently that those who use it can never agree on a definition of) are talking complete and utter shit when they whine about Trek espousing social equality and liberal values as they really must have had their heads up their arses for fifty years if they haven't spotted that Trek has been a loud advocate for progressive values.

However, there is one thing I will pick up on that you yourself say and that is talk of an agenda. I think one of the differences between past Treks and this one is that past Treks discussed issues and offered arguments for and against. In other words they encouraged the audience to think for themselves and perhaps be persuaded to think differently. This show is different. It preaches without argument and that doesn't persuade people. Take, for instance, Stamets and Culber. Their relationship is offered up as a loud screaming message "gay is normal", deal with it. Now while I personally think that anyone who thinks otherwise is off their heads, the fact is that many audience members, especially in Trek's home nation of America, still have homophobic views. They aren't going to have their views changed by being told what to think. They need to be shown why they may not have the right views. Same with things like the "Trump is bad" allegory we're getting. Well, if Trump is bad, we need an argument for why he is bad (and they are plenty enough!). So I think what I am getting at is the show needs to be less "you must think this" and be more "have a think about this". Sadly I have yet to be convinced the writers have the skill for the latter.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I wonder who becomes emperor now

Landry was for about a minute.

 

[ISS-Magnum]

Sullivan was on After Trek and seemed to infer that the lone spore that landed on Tilley would be meaningful in the future.

Please no. Are they planning to destroy another potentially cool character? Will Tilly get superpowers? Prophetic visions? Will she become a Greek goddess or a Wormhole Alien?

 

[cooleddie74]

I think she'll wake up in a bed next to Suzanne Pleshette, but that's just me.

 

[Vger23]

Sullivan also said something like "now that Jason is off the show I can say this" and then quickly corrected himself with "I mean off of After Trek." Hmmm...

I caught that as well.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

Lorca, despite all the previous complexity we've seen from him, was treated as just a mustache-twirling two-dimensional villain in the end... from the moment they had him mouth a speech evocative of Trump(!) it was obvious he was irredeemable and wouldn't survive.

The speech was almost the exact same one T'Kuvma gave in the series premiere -- racial purity, strength, reclaiming a lost heritage. The whole speech was clearly supposed to be paralleling how Mirror Voq was leading a multispecies federation against an evil Empire.

If T'Kuvma and Lorca both sound like Trump ... c'mon, DS9 had a two-parter attacking Newt Gingrich. This is what Star Trek does.

 

[XCV330]

Landry was for about a minute.

(to the tune of Blackadder II)

Her doppleganger was a king
Although for only thirty seconds
When Ripper Learning was a thing
She felt the call to glory beckon
E Landry E Landry
reduced to bones and muck
E Landry E Landry
A multi-versal schmuck
E Landry E Landry
nothing goes as planned
E Landry E Landry
life deals her a bum hand

 

[Uhura's Song]

I went with a 7 tonight.

The good:
1) More Michelle Yeoh
2) Michelle kicks some butt.
3) Disco bridge Crew gets to talk
4) Cool laser battles & fight scenes

The not so good:
1) Star Wars plots:
a) Disable the shield & hit the orb
b) Use the Force, Paul
2) Avatar-esque spore landing on Tilly
3) I found it amazing that no one could get a shot off vs Burnham/Georgiou at the end. Did I miss something.
4) Telling us Burnham is awesome rather than showing us is weak writing.

The Ugly

1) This whining about SWJ and Lorca getting beaten up by two girls smacks of misogyny in my view. Look, have an opinion on the show = fine. Isaacs is a better actor than SMG = duh. But this idea that they had to get rid of the white male guy because he was overshadowing the black girl is Alex Jones Info Wars level stupid, and is revealing about the poster in my view.

I am NOT trying to chill dissent, or call someone a name, just voicing my opinion of how a certain type of criticism comes across to me. And others, I suspect.
------------------------

Yeoh and SMG did fine carrying the ball at first. Though the first two episodes were a tad rushed. Isaacs did well carrying the load at first before the other characters developed. Stamets, Tilly, & Saru are better flushed out now & should be able to help SMG & Yeoh carry the ball from here. Tyler, L'Rell, Cornwell, & Sarek will also help. As will the development of the bridge crew.

This was not my favorite episode, but all in all, I think this is the strongest first season of any Trek outside of TOS. I mean, what would the other contender be? Enterprise or Voyager?

Last note on Lorca. His belief in destiny was his fatal flaw. It was well set up throughout the series. Burnham was flaw #2. Hardly the 1st time a Trek captain didn't get the shields up. MU Lorca fell into the shield, not the network, so he should be done. Though the fate of PU Lorca could be an open question. Hope he is in MU somewhere. ISS Discovery's whereabouts is also an open question, unless I missed it.

Looking forward to next week.

 

[David cgc]

Was I the only one who, when the Throne Room Fight started, shouted out, "They're doing The Last Jedi! It's such a weird coincidence that they're doing The Last Jedi." It's not like there's any way they could've known (because, of course, if they had, they would've done something else). I was also yelling at Lorca that he was being a fool; he's a gunfighter getting into hand-to-hand combat with the star of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? And then she immediately kicked him in the forehead, proving me right.

I am disappointed that all of Lorca's interestingness, conflict, and layers of depth turned out to be a ploy (and confused that Mirror-Georgiou ended up being honorable as promised). I think they might've fallen too much in love with their own twist of having the captain be the secret bad guy and carried it too far, when it would've better served the drama to have him be at odds with our Federation heroes, but not necessarily their antithesis. You could've had basically the same action with Lorca being, say, a sympathizer with the alien rebellion, or if he'd been won over after living in the Federation for the better part of the year and hoped to liberalize the Empire (after the requisite bloody revolution, attempting to dismantle the master's house with the master's tools leading to disaster), while Georgiou could've remained "savage," someone who kills her advisors for hearing the wrong thing and orders executions-by-torture as a matter of course, but Burnham having to work with her because she's got nothing to lose, while Lorca is unwilling to give up the Mycelium star that'll give him the power to reshape the Terran Empire.

Yes, Burnham almost always saved the day in some way from week to week, but the overarching plot was all set in motion due to the actions of Lorca - even if it wasn't entirely clear at the moment we were viewing it.

That's getting pretty close to the meme that in many stories, the villain is the "protagonist" in the most literal sense, in that they are the one who want to achieve or accomplish something that will change themselves or the world, while the hero only wants to stop them and preserve the status quo (crime stories being the prototypical example. The criminal has goals, motivations, and growth, the cop only exists to oppose them).

 

[Kane_Steel]

Actually I don't. I know many like you seem to complain about it and tag SJW at the end of your opinion. I didn't ignore your question either. There is nothing "mary-sue" about her character either.

And yes there is not way they'd let isaac and his character be the hero because Lorca was written as the villain. The character is a bad guy therefore, is not the hero.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

The point of the debate is whether that was a good move or not. And whether Mary-Sue Burnham should have been the central, lead character... or not.

With Isaacs potentially gone now and written off so unceremoniously, let's see if audiences gravitate towards Sonequa. I'm skeptical that will happen.