Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x10 - "Despite Yourself"

[jaime]

Really disturbing question I heard someone say today on a podcast ...

"Which universe do we live in? Are we sure we don't live in the Mirror Universe?"

We saw the credits on Enterprise, so mostly sure we don’t. And despite the general malaise in the Western world, things will probably turn out OK in the end. Social Media is the biggest threat to us, so worry when Khan gets on instagram befor leaving on a Spacex flight.

 

[Feron]

Do we know that an agonizer leaves scars?

And why would MU Lorca have agonizer scars? Did he not command the ISS BURAN, apparently "honourably," until his attempted coup? What reason would he have to have presumed agonizer scars--again, presuming they leave scars?

I don't know that they leave scars, but if they do the TOS agonizers are about the right size and shape to match Lorca's injury.

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[DEWLine]

Interesting attention to detail there, if the theory holds...

 

[yenny]

Everyone have to look at episode 11 trailer and see what I'm seeing. At the scene when Sarek is about to do a mind mild on Burnham. There's at the end of the Table is a Klingon that look like Voq. To his right, there's a Klingon that look like the Klingons from the movies. ST'TNG, STDS9, and Enterprise.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

He wasn’t on the Buran when it went boom

We don't know that.

For all we do know, one of the Buran's officers could have stuffed Lorca into an escape pod and made sure he got away safely.

In any case, we know so little about the Buran disaster that we can't conclusively rule out the possibility that Lorca could indeed have been injured as a result of it (beyond the eye trauma that we've already seen).

 

[cbl1]

I always assumed Lorca's scars were from the Klingon Prison. Interesting theory on them being agonizer scars! If some of these Lorca theories come to fruition - definite re-watches will be in order to see all the previous clues.

 

[Albinator]

I always assumed Lorca's scars were from the Klingon Prison. Interesting theory on them being agonizer scars! If some of these Lorca theories come to fruition - definite re-watches will be in order to see all the previous clues.

I think the reason there was suspicion of them being agonizer scars was the pattern, they appeared to be in roughly the same triangle shape of the TOS agonizers.

 

[Albinator]

We don't know that.

For all we do know, one of the Buran's officers could have stuffed Lorca into an escape pod and made sure he got away safely.

In any case, we know so little about the Buran disaster that we can't conclusively rule out the possibility that Lorca could indeed have been injured as a result of it (beyond the eye trauma that we've already seen).

Beyond that, the whole story he told about the Buran could have been a total fabrication. Maybe he murdered the entire crew, maybe he got them killed during a cowardly escape, maybe (if he's mirror Lorca) he wasn't even there. A lot of ways they can go with the story of the Buran and Lorca.

 

[Albinator]

Everyone have to look at episode 11 trailer and see what I'm seeing. At the scene when Sarek is about to do a mind mild on Burnham. There's at the end of the Table is a Klingon that look like Voq. To his right, there's a Klingon that look like the Klingons from the movies. ST'TNG, STDS9, and Enterprise.

I did see Voq when the photos were released, and I see what could be a TNG style Klingon, but it's far too blurry to be sure. Sunday should be fun.

EDIT: would be fun if that is a TNG Klingon on his right (ridges) and on his left a TOS Klingon (human looking).

 

[gblews]

It would make no difference to the events that occur in the Mirror Universe.

So then there really is no real reason for the RU DSC crew to attempt to warn Starfleet about Defiant's potential fate when they get back to the RU as you advocated here:

Also if the Discovery now knows about what happens with the Defiant why wouldn't they warn Starfleet about it when they get back?

But it would save the lives of the crew who would otherwise have died on the Defiant.

If "a" Defiant is going to show up in the MU regardless of any precautions initiated by Starfleet to prevent it from going into the rift (per your theory), how would the lives of the Defiant that will still show up in the MU (per your theory) be saved?

 

[Fateor]

Everyone have to look at episode 11 trailer and see what I'm seeing. At the scene when Sarek is about to do a mind mild on Burnham. There's at the end of the Table is a Klingon that look like Voq. To his right, there's a Klingon that look like the Klingons from the movies. ST'TNG, STDS9, and Enterprise.

You might be right, it kind of looks like a classic Klingon next to Voq.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Yeah it does.

 

[The Memetic Susurrus]

I don't know that they leave scars, but if they do the TOS agonizers are about the right size and shape to match Lorca's injury.

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That does not look like the kind of device that gives you this kind of scar...

That's a keloid scar. Not likely to've been caused by something that, essentially, is a taser.

 

[Albinator]

That does not look like the kind of device that gives you this kind of scar...

That's a keloid scar. Not likely to've been caused by something that, essentially, is a taser.

It's fiction, and Star Trek at that. I doubt we can definitively infer what caused the scar based on the scar itself.

 

[Feron]

That does not look like the kind of device that gives you this kind of scar...

That's a keloid scar. Not likely to've been caused by something that, essentially, is a taser.

I'm certainly open to the very real possibility that it isn't an agonizer scar and that Lorca isn't the MU version. I'm just speculating at this point since that's pretty much part of our entertainment while we wait for the next episode.

As to whether an agonizer leaves any scar or if it does what type of scar it leaves -- at this point I don't know. Yes, it looks kinda like a taser effect, but since this is sci-fi I really do not know at this point what sort of energy it uses on the victim and what effect said energy has on them aside from the obvious intense pain caused.

I just thought that it was an interesting theory, since the TOS agonizers are indeed roughly the same shape and size as Lorca's back scar. And are you sure that the scar is a keloid one? At least to my untrained eye it looks like it might be a hypertrophic scar since it is still rather thin and has not expanded.

 

[guyute03]

Kinda feel like it's a shame we never got a TNG or VOY Mirror episode now.

 

[The Memetic Susurrus]

I'm certainly open to the very real possibility that it isn't an agonizer scar and that Lorca isn't the MU version. I'm just speculating at this point since that's pretty much part of our entertainment while we wait for the next episode.

As to whether an agonizer leaves any scar or if it does what type of scar it leaves -- at this point I don't know. Yes, it looks kinda like a taser effect, but since this is sci-fi I really do not know at this point what sort of energy it uses on the victim and what effect said energy has on them aside from the obvious intense pain caused.

I just thought that it was an interesting theory, since the TOS agonizers are indeed roughly the same shape and size as Lorca's back scar. And are you sure that the scar is a keloid one? At least to my untrained eye it looks like it might be a hypertrophic scar since it is still rather thin and has not expanded.

Yeah...come to think of it, it is a little thin, so...it very well could be hypertrophic. Good call.

I'm completely open to the idea of Lorca being MU-native...I just think it would be a shame.

In fact, there's actually two things that this episode that fall under the "Man, I can see where they're heading, but...I wish it were not so..." category: Ash-is-Voq (because when was the last time you saw a storyline where the female sexually abused the male?) and Is-it-OUR-Lorca (because then the whole war-is-hell idea that Lorca is better suited to this environment than the "Gee, we're just explorer"-types in Starfleet goes out the window). In fact, I thought, for a while there, we were going to get a nuanced treatment of Acute Stress Disorder (Lorca) and PTSD (Tyler) as well as a realistic portrayal of a man who's been sexually abused by a woman and the psychology of why he would react the way he does about it.

Instead...we're heading towards Mirror Friend, Mirror Foe and Manchurian Candidate territory, respectfully, and all I can see are missed opportunities.

Again, good call on the scar.

 

[The Memetic Susurrus]

Kinda feel like it's a shame we never got a TNG or VOY Mirror episode now.

You know what would've been more interesting to me? I mean, if you do this trope too much then it becomes...well, too tropish. But would it not have been a tad more original--and stretched less credulity--to have had a parallel universe that went pearshaped but have it not be the Mirror Universe?

Perhaps one where the machinations of the Temporal Cold War had more of an effect on the timeline or maybe one where something drastically different occurs--say, the Romulans never break away from the Vulcans--and you get a realistic portrayal of the Butterfly Effect. Not the semi-parody that is the Mirror Universe. I really have to work hard to suspend disbelief every time I watch MU episodes...

 

[Albinator]

Kinda feel like it's a shame we never got a TNG or VOY Mirror episode now.

On the other hand, I feel like overuse of the concept could have killed it.

Yeah...come to think of it, it is a little thin, so...it very well could be hypertrophic. Good call.

I'm completely open to the idea of Lorca being MU-native...I just think it would be a shame.

In fact, there's actually two things that this episode that fall under the "Man, I can see where they're heading, but...I wish it were not so..." category: Ash-is-Voq (because when was the last time you saw a storyline where the female sexually abused the male?) and Is-it-OUR-Lorca (because then the whole war-is-hell idea that Lorca is better suited to this environment than the "Gee, we're just explorer"-types in Starfleet goes out the window). In fact, I thought, for a while there, we were going to get a nuanced treatment of Acute Stress Disorder (Lorca) and PTSD (Tyler) as well as a realistic portrayal of a man who's been sexually abused by a woman and the psychology of why he would react the way he does about it.

Instead...we're heading towards Mirror Friend, Mirror Foe and Manchurian Candidate territory, respectfully, and all I can see are missed opportunities.

Again, good call on the scar.

I completely agree with you. I'm fine if these theories turn out to be true, but I'd like it if they threw us a curveball we didn't see coming. That said, I don't think they necessarily want to throw complete curveballs: I've said this before, I think the producers are laying obvious clues such that it leads to fan speculation and endless blogging, thereby creating a circle of "buzz" for the show.

Half of what made shows like Game of Thrones, Westworld, and Walking Dead so popular was fans endlessly and fervently speculating online in between episodes and seasons.

 

[Feron]

Yeah...come to think of it, it is a little thin, so...it very well could be hypertrophic. Good call.

I'm completely open to the idea of Lorca being MU-native...I just think it would be a shame.

In fact, there's actually two things that this episode that fall under the "Man, I can see where they're heading, but...I wish it were not so..." category: Ash-is-Voq (because when was the last time you saw a storyline where the female sexually abused the male?) and Is-it-OUR-Lorca (because then the whole war-is-hell idea that Lorca is better suited to this environment than the "Gee, we're just explorer"-types in Starfleet goes out the window). In fact, I thought, for a while there, we were going to get a nuanced treatment of Acute Stress Disorder (Lorca) and PTSD (Tyler) as well as a realistic portrayal of a man who's been sexually abused by a woman and the psychology of why he would react the way he does about it.

Instead...we're heading towards Mirror Friend, Mirror Foe and Manchurian Candidate territory, respectfully, and all I can see are missed opportunities.

Again, good call on the scar.

Thanks for the kind words.

And I agree with your overall sentiments that I also personally would rather that Lorca is our prime version an so on. But at least if he is indeed the Mirror Lorca so far what has been said indicates that this Lorca might be genuinely heroic, which would probably drive the Lorca-haters over the edge.

Because if he is Mirror Lorca we know that he has tried to overthrow the evil dictator of the Terran Empire and that apparently his mission and dedication to this is so intense that he willingly has allowed himself to be taken to an ISS ship to be tortured in the most painful way imaginable.

If the above turns out to be the case, while he would definitely be a maverick, it would be rather difficult to make him out to be a villain.