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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x10 - "Despite Yourself"

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However we live in a world where the Eurocentric beauty standard sets the rules of physical beauty. Things are slowly changing.

OT but this is something I often ponder when thinking about orientalist art. Putting some of the obviously unpleasant stuff aside, on the one hand it fetishises the ‘other’ from their perspective, but in some cases it also highlights a more varied approach to beauty standards that just never caught on. Of course, much of it propagates racial stereotypes occasionally, but sometimes there’s an odd earnest side to it that, taken in context, almost seems like a longing for the kind of progress we look to now.
And sliding it back on topic, in some ways, the attractive aliens of Trek (less offensively than the Twerking Twileks of the other Star Franchise.) and other SF in some ways echo that. Gene Roddenberry was very much that kind of orientalist figure, if the stories are to be believed.
 
I want to know about Mirror Tyler more, because love is all around and I think he might just make it after all*.





*Oh please oh please oh please get this reference so I don't feel like I'm 90 years old.
I went with the Wet Wet Wet song first before tossing my hat in the air!

This Tyler thing is disturbing me because he is layered onto presumably Voq. I'm not sure how that plan was meant to work. Yes he killed Culber but he's now pledging to always protect Michael. Now mirror Tyler?? Oh man, but maybe mirror Tyler is their Voq layered onto their Tyler? (Yeah I was trying too hard there :lol:)
 
If true, i always thought it was funny that this is seen as some commentary on modern society considering this has existed for all of human history.

Its like, great job, y'all so creative.

If true,

So you object to social message that criticizes racist nationalism?
 
At first glance, because of his capper "y'all ain't creative" I thought he was commenting on the lack of subtlety/creativity. Was about to respond and mention "Let that Be Your Last Battlefield."

But it sounds like he's saying that because the issue is one that has existed forever, it isn't worth commenting on. Which is a ridiculous line of thinking.
 
He said it was a silly message because it has existed for all of human history. What else should I infer? Go directly to jail.

You could infer exactly what was written. We aren't exactly talking about a cryptic message written in code.
 
At first glance, because of his capper "y'all ain't creative" I thought he was commenting on the lack of subtlety/creativity. Was about to respond and mention "Let that Be Your Last Battlefield."

But it sounds like he's saying that because the issue is one that has existed forever, it isn't worth commenting on. Which is a ridiculous line of thinking.

I think you're makin this a bit too complicated.

I simply don't find making klingons or humans racist as a way of social commentary very creative. Yes its been around for all of human history, it isn't like they are treading new ground. I wanna talk about racism, I know, well make one of the races, racist!
 
Then again...Admiral Cornwell said he ain’t the man she knew.

Considering how "well" she does her primary job--psychiatry--that isn't saying much. I can chalk it up to bad writing (though, for god's sake, writers do have access to search engines and they can look up the symptoms of PTSD vs Acute Stress Disorder and figure out the difference...) but, since she's shown to be ethically conflicted in the first place--sleeping with your patient? Really...---not so sure we're not looking at a clever attempt by the writers at misdirection. And, yes, the same writers who craft schlocky psychiatry/psychology can, nonetheless, be clever at making us think they're implying Lorca is MU.

Still, I'm a big Lorca Apologist, so...I'd like to think he's Prime Universe's Lorca but, hell, I'd be satisfied with MU Lorca so long as they keep him around.
 
I think you're makin this a bit too complicated.

I simply don't find making klingons or humans racist as a way of social commentary very creative. Yes its been around for all of human history, it isn't like they are treading new ground. I wanna talk about racism, I know, well make one of the races, racist!

It doesn't have to be creative, just an effective mechanism for getting the message across. I frankly find this kind of thing a lot more interesting and creative than the kinds of racism/xenophobia allegories Trek has done in the past that beat you over your head with their subtlety.

And as for "make one of the races racist"-- they have: humans. In the Mirror Universe, humans reject all non-human races (similar to the Enterprise episode "Terra Prime"). Now true, the Mirror Universe itself doesn't exactly scream subtle, but it's a new use for the concept than just "evil version cosplay."
 
War changes people, as a doctor she should know that
It could be he changed because of the war and he has survivor guilt or it could be a writer's clue: "The truth is you are not the man I used to know". "It sure wasn't what it was like before". Women know these things...
 
It could be he changed because of the war and he has survivor guilt or it could be a writer's clue: "The truth is you are not the man I used to know". "It sure wasn't what it was like before". Women know these things...

I think that's what makes it interesting. There are other clues: Lorca's deflections when Cornwell brings up their past together, the strange marks on his back, his intentional redirection of the last spore jump...

But all of these things are vague enough that they could mean one of many different things. And part of me hopes it's trying to make us think he's a Mirror Lorca, and really it's something else.
 
It doesn't have to be creative, just an effective mechanism for getting the message across. I frankly find this kind of thing a lot more interesting and creative than the kinds of racism/xenophobia allegories Trek has done in the past that beat you over your head with their subtlety.

And as for "make one of the races racist"-- they have: humans. In the Mirror Universe, humans reject all non-human races (similar to the Enterprise episode "Terra Prime"). Now true, the Mirror Universe itself doesn't exactly scream subtle, but it's a new use for the concept than just "evil version cosplay."

No statement has to be creative to be made. But when I'm watching a sci fi fantasy fictional tc show that's what I'm looking for, creativity. Maybe for you tv doesn't need to be creative but if what I was looking for was straight forward political or social conversation I'd just have it myself instead of watching sci fi.
 
No statement has to be creative to be made. But when I'm watching a sci fi fantasy fictional tc show that's what I'm looking for, creativity. Maybe for you tv doesn't need to be creative but if what I was looking for was straight forward political or social conversation I'd just have it myself instead of watching sci fi.

You're right, for me, not everything has to be super creative, nor super original. There's plenty of great Trek this is standard sci-fi fare.

Besides, how is introducing a race of racist aliens any more creative than using the MU as an allegory? What makes that NOT creative in your mind? I think it's a fairly original and creative premise to start from, considering the Mirror Universe prior to this was mainly a one-note gag.
 
You're right, for me, not everything has to be super creative, nor super original. There's plenty of great Trek this is standard sci-fi fare.

Besides, how is introducing a race of racist aliens any more creative than using the MU as an allegory? What makes that NOT creative in your mind? I think it's a fairly original and creative premise to start from, considering the Mirror Universe prior to this was mainly a one-note gag.

I don't have an issue with it not being creative, I certainly don't find it interesting or thought provoking.

I'm just sayin if someone wrre to say " yeah and that message on raxist nationalism was really somethin wasnt it" I'd just say "eh"
 
I think you're makin this a bit too complicated.

I simply don't find making klingons or humans racist as a way of social commentary very creative. Yes its been around for all of human history, it isn't like they are treading new ground. I wanna talk about racism, I know, well make one of the races, racist!
That, and it is just such a weak and worn-out argument, a literal violation of "Godwin's Law".

When folks have to resort to calling mainstream people "racist", it generally just shows that they have nothing to say that is worthwhile. It is cheap and childish.

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Considering how "well" she does her primary job--psychiatry--that isn't saying much. I can chalk it up to bad writing (though, for god's sake, writers do have access to search engines and they can look up the symptoms of PTSD vs Acute Stress Disorder and figure out the difference...) but, since she's shown to be ethically conflicted in the first place--sleeping with your patient? Really...---not so sure we're not looking at a clever attempt by the writers at misdirection. And, yes, the same writers who craft schlocky psychiatry/psychology can, nonetheless, be clever at making us think they're implying Lorca is MU.

Still, I'm a big Lorca Apologist, so...I'd like to think he's Prime Universe's Lorca but, hell, I'd be satisfied with MU Lorca so long as they keep him around.

Starfleet, historically, don’t really get PTSD. At least...very rarely. Grows out of that old astronaut best of the best mentality of early SF. It’s also because there would be nothing but PTSD stories by about three episodes in. Exhibit A: O’Brien. A man fucked with, fucked up, and just generally fucked so often, that by at least season three of Ds9 his closest relationship really should be with Bashir, because he would be on meds and in long term treatment. But he’s unlucky even by Starfleet standards. This is a job with death, more death, a side of abduction, possession, injury and the occasional time slip or meeting of yourself. It almost makes Genes viewpoint on Jeremy Aster in TNG understandable. These people undergo stresses that humans now never have, and joke about it at the coffee machine. I mean ok, Kirk never had a window, but everyone else sleeps literally about a foot away from the most hostile environment short of swimming in lava that the universe has to offer. PTSD in Star Treks narrative basically makes no sense. From a certain point of view. It only comes up when we are doing Vietnam in Space Basically. (Ds9 here and there, Picard with the Borg. Never, oddly, post Gul Madred or Sarek or...I forget his Ressikian name.) I also don’t think he’s Cornwells patient. Subordinate, possibly, friend yes...but she’s not treating him.
It’s telling that most of the time we see Troi doing her job, it’s for run of the mill stuff mostly. (Relationships, personality issues, family issues) and rarely the seriously messed up stuff that happens in Starfleet.
It’s something that’s inconsistent in DSC too...Lorca has PTSD? What about the Shenzou crew? The prisoners who watch their pilot killed? Burnham herself?
The Disco is the ship of the Damaged, but none of them really are...except when we need them to be. Even Ash, and what he thinks he remembers (way to backtrack on your Male rape survivor story DSC team..though we can see why you did.) is basically what O’Brien would call ‘Tuesday’ not that far in the future.
It’s a tricky place for Trek to go to, and has only really sort of panned out once or twice in the past (Siskos wife, Nogs leg, Picard and the Borg Queen. Though that may have broken the Picard character for the remaining films.) and Lorca trip to the agoniser booths here will by necessity just be another day ending in y.
 
I think that's what makes it interesting. There are other clues: Lorca's deflections when Cornwell brings up their past together, the strange marks on his back, his intentional redirection of the last spore jump...

But all of these things are vague enough that they could mean one of many different things. And part of me hopes it's trying to make us think he's a Mirror Lorca, and really it's something else.
My thoughts on this is that origin universe Lorca (if he died) blew up his ship probably with himself on board. Possibly at the time mirror Lorca did not destroy mirror Buran (this mysterious Emperor is responsible). That would obviously mean mirror Lorca had the capabilities of being convincing on those psych tests because he would be the 'Lorca' who did not push the button so to speak. (I think that made sense).

However it could still be origin Lorca if the writers want to go that way. I don't know what happens when an origin and a mirror meet. Do they put on white gloves and mime each other? If the two Lorcas met on the origin Buran and had a chat over fortune cookies maybe the original Lorca went rogue after getting all mirror's intel, bopped him over the head and blew him and the Buran up anyway. I mean there can only be one Lorca, let's face this. The one we have now is on a mission to go to every mycelial universe he knows to proclaim the right to be recognised as the sole Lorca. This is just the beginning.
 
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