Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x10 - "Despite Yourself"

[Kirk Prime]

Possibilities:-
1. Burnham misinterpreted the data
2. Ten years is a long time politically for an empire, anything can happen including a few social reforms
3. This is not the Prime Mirror universe
4. You assume every human agrees with how the empire operates

Burnham misinterpreting the data is an easy answer, but it's hard to dismiss the writers' intent by saying the character is wrong. So far, no evidence other than TOS that Burnham was wrong.

Number 2 doesn't seem likely since by the time we see Mirror Mirror, the Empire is going quite strong, and that episode set the template for this one. Plus, Spock would be on the Enterprise at this point, if his history matches Spock Prime, which it should given that they both end up on the Enterprise.

Number 3 is a fair explanation, and a very good one, though again it comes down to writers' intent. I think both universe from Discovery would be better if they were not what we know.

Number 4 I don't feel is relevant, because even if that were the case, that really wouldn't effect Spock because to be on the Enterprise, and rise to power, you kind of have to buy into it.

Your main issue here is that you're trying to apply logic to the mirror universe. If you stop, the issue disappears.

More like I'm trying to apply consistency to the writing and what we know, based on writers' intent. I obviously don't like the idea that they are visiting the Mirror Universe before Kirk and crew encounter it, which they should first. This show would be in much better shape writing wise if it were set between the launching of the Enterprise B and TNG.

It could then follow up TOS stories without revisionist history.

But here, this is the writers' fault. Humans and Vulcans should be allies in this empire.

Regarding the Temporal Prime Directive, I don't know if something like that would apply. If I know you are going to die, it's not wrong to warn you. As from Discovery's perspective, the Defiant's fate is in their future, not their past, I would not think there are any time travel rules being violated.

It's no different than getting intel that a bunch of Klingons are going to kill the Federation President and stopping it.

 

[MacLeod]

Regardless, I understand that some women like the whole Adrien Brody tall gangly guy with big nose. I just don't think Shazad Latif in particular is anything more than average looking. SMG is absolutely a beautiful woman however. Anyone who can't see that either thinks black women are ugly or is inherently biased against women cast in roles which don't have them showing off a lot of skin.

Beauty is a subjective thing, some people migh not find SMG attractive, that does not mean they consider all black woman ugly but skin colour is irrelevant it's as simple as people are attracted to certain people and not attracted to others

 

[XCV330]

The human/Klingon hybrid that is Voq will cure the augment virus, spread it via the spore network when he and Burnham join with it, TMP, style, and as a result, the network is killed but the Klingons get their groove...I mean hair...back. The current look is the result of failed attempts to cure the augment virus. Boom. Next week, how I use The Sisko to fold the Kelvin Timeline into a bow.

Whatever it takes to end the Klingon arc and put them to rest for many years. I REALLY like this series but I don't like what they've done with the Klingons, and if they can take one lesson from VOY, don't let the Klingons be the Kazons, and if they are already becoming their next Kazons, just drop them and move on.

 

[cultcross]

Well according to Voyager Starfleet was researching the Borg before the Ent-D even encountered them.

Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened.

Not to mention nobody (except the Captain) knowing about the "Omega Directive" until they came within close proximity to an Omega Particle.

Starfleet is terrible at sending out memos. They are boldly going where someone may have gone before, but we lost the file. As an interplanetary government department, I find that very realistic.

It's easy for civilized people to cosplay as barbarians, but the reverse just doesn't work.

I've always disliked that line because in my experience, the opposite is true. The worst examples of humanity are very skilled at hiding it.

Sorry, bit dark. Back to the gold sashes!

 

[MacLeod]

I would think that the ISS Discovery crew would be found out in short order. They'd be far too barbaric to ever be able to pose as their "Federation" counterparts. In fact I'd guess that the ISS Discovery has probably already been destroyed.

Remember, in "Mirror, Mirror", when the Mirror landing party finds themselves aboard the regular Enterprise, they are immediately discovered and locked up by Spock, but MU Spock takes awhile before he realizes that the landing party *he* finds, are not normal Imperial personnel.

It's easy for civilized people to cosplay as barbarians, but the reverse just doesn't work.

Well Captain Killy sorry Cadet Tilly seemed to do quite well at acting like a barbarian.

 

[Lord Garth]

I've always disliked that line because in my experience, the opposite is true. The worst examples of humanity are very skilled at hiding it.

Unfortunately very true. And you don't know until it's too late.

 

[Bandini]

The MU Discovery is in the real universe, that means that Captain Killy is in the real universe, she will kill as much as klingons as she find with no mercy.

Could it be that way, she becomes a captain in the real universe and earn her ship there and that could mean that Stamets can travel in time ?

 

[lurok]

Fuck yeah...

 

[Noname Given]

Starfleet is terrible at sending out memos. They are boldly going where someone may have gone before, but we lost the file. As an interplanetary government department, I find that very realistic.

Or, they actually CLASSIFY stuff and don't just load every Federation starship computer with every Starfleet situation from the past 100+ years of Starfleet's existence.

 

[ALF]

On a rewatch, I am now convinced that Phillipa is the Emperor(ress) in the MU. Story wise but also production wise, it makes sense.

• MU Connor states rather emphatically that the emperor "Saw something in him" while he was working his way up the ranks. That may seem like nothing, but both characters died in Battle of the Binary Stars. I think writing-wise, this was an intentional clue.
• The Empror(ess) being shrouded in mystery. Even the gender ambiguity works here. It all makes for a better reveal. I just hope they don't do it (the reveal) as the season cliffhanger.
• There is also the weight of the reveal bringing back Michelle Yeoh - since Captain Georgiou was killed it's just been a matter of time before Burnham would again "confront" her again using the magic of Trek. If not the MU, another reality/time travel then. Of course this time around, MU Georgiou will try and kill Burnham because MU. And of course, Burnham will be conflicted having caused her death in the Prime Universe.

Does anyone think that Burnham may become too attached to commanding the ISS Shenzou and start to prefer the MU? Maybe she won't want to leave her command when they figure out how to get back. The pull back of her in the captain's chair, "Long live the Empire!" I think she would dig it.

The crew of the Discovery are now on a collision course with the destiny of the MU. Lorca even mentions destiny specifically - remarkable that in an alternate universe so many people still ended up together or on the same ship, or in similar circumstances, etc. Now I'm wondering if Discovery's actions are going to be the reason that the Terran Empire becomes enslaved by the rebels in the DS9 future...

Another poster, pages ago suggested Lorca may be a MU native. After watching again, I do believe that may be a strong possibility too. His mannerisms and personality are a better fit for the MU as compared to the rest of the crew.

They have a great opportunity here to do right by the MU. While the idea of a dark mirror world is often derided as a cliche ridden writer's trope, there's a great chance that this series will be able to bring something here worth reflecting on.

 

[MacLeod]

[QUOTE="cultcross, post: 12316782, member: 766"

I've always disliked that line because in my experience, the opposite is true. The worst examples of humanity are very skilled at hiding it.
[/QUOTE]

But is it easier for someone to feign civilised when they have a notion of how one should behave, in the MU it's unlikely anyone who demonstrantes what we consider civilised behaviour would last long. So they might not know how to act it.

 

[bigglesworth]

Lorca couldn't be from the Mirror Universe. He actually shows some remorse for his actions, like when he murdered his crew (really messed up).

I think they're eventually setting Lorca up to be an irredeemable villain that Sonequa has to overpower.... so making him simply a Mirror version would be a big copout.

I was someone that was fairly convinced that Lorca was from the MU until I rewatched "Despite Yourself" again last night. In the segment where ISS Cooper is hailing Discovery, Lorca is about to respond and orders Bryce to open a channel when Burnham states to belay that and reveals that Tilly is the captain.

If Lorca was from the MU, he would have known that he's a wanted man and not relied on Burnham or someone else to realize he's not the captain at the very last second. I think an MU Lorca would have suggested for one reason or another, that Burnham or one of the other bridge crew to answer the hail.

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Good point.

 

[cultcross]

Indeed it is.

 

[eschaton]

I've always disliked that line because in my experience, the opposite is true. The worst examples of humanity are very skilled at hiding it!

Yeah, but that's because in the real world, the worst people are psychopaths. In Trek's mirror universe, normal people do things which would be considered psychopath behavior because of essentially peer pressure. They've been socialized to be awful from an early age. They wouldn't have an easy time blending into the Federation at all.

To use a modern analogy, cities around the world with a high Somali immigrant population tend to have issues with high levels of rape. This isn't because Somali men are uniquely scumbags. It's because they grew up socialized in a culture where it was considered publicly acceptable for men to rape women from outside your clan if you saw them alone at night. These Somali guys are - psychologically speaking - normal. They just were socialized with some effed up norms.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It'd be hilarious if, when Discovery returned, they found out their mirror counterparts won the war in their absence

 

[137th Gebirg]

It probably wouldn't take much, honestly. When they took out the Empire's main leadership after taking out the Sarcophagus ship, it effectively cut off the head for the war effort. It's probably more of a mop-up now in their absence.

 

[cultcross]

Yeah, but that's because in the real world, the worst people are psychopaths. In Trek's mirror universe, normal people do things which would be considered psychopath behavior because of essentially peer pressure. They've been socialized to be awful from an early age. They wouldn't have an easy time blending into the Federation at all

Oh i get why in-universe the MU characters couldn't hide. I just disagree with the general wisdom of Spock's line.

To use a modern analogy, cities around the world with a high Somali immigrant population tend to have issues with high levels of rape.

As someone who investigates sex crime in such a city I'd love to see the source for that little tidbit.

 

[ClintDagger]

I was someone that was fairly convinced that Lorca was from the MU until I rewatched "Despite Yourself" again last night. In the segment where ISS Cooper is hailing Discovery, Lorca is about to respond and orders Bryce to open a channel when Burnham states to belay that and reveals that Tilly is the captain.

If Lorca was from the MU, he would have known that he's a wanted man and not relied on Burnham or someone else to realize he's not the captain at the very last second. I think an MU Lorca would have suggested for one reason or another, that Burnham or one of the other bridge crew to answer the hail.

That’s assuming Lorca is up to date on everything that has happened in the MU. Perhaps him being a wanted man, Killy rising to power, etcetera all occurred AFTER he switched places with Prime Lorca. If that switch occurred, we don’t know how long ago that might have been (I don’t believe).

 

[Albinator]

My headcannon says otherwise, at least for now - if only because the showrunners have also said the Klingons are bald "for now" - implying they won't be at some point. Which (unless the Discovery mucks up with Klingon prehistory via time travel) suggests to me they'll end up in a slightly different universe where the Klingons have hair.

"Head cannon"-- well first, it's "canon" and second, that doesn't change the facts. I have to say though, how would most people describe someone who is so willfully in denial of the world that they invent their own reality in their head to cope with it?

Mentally disturbed.