Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x10 - "Despite Yourself"

[The Habs Fan]

You're not getting it, aren't you?
It's not about not being able to follow the bare bones of the structure. It's about being able to get the full experience by simply watching it. It's the same with ST09: "Oh, Nero's motivation makes no sense? Well, it's explained in the comic book, you need to read THAT first!". Sorry. I'm not doing that. If your character motivations are shit, and I need to research and buy external material to make sense of them for the thing I'm watching in the first place - yeah, I'm not going to buy that but will complain your character motivations are shit.

Same rules for DIS. Nobody will not get what has happened this episode. It will just come across as really stupid If you're unfamiliar with these specific old episodes.

Earlier you said you have to know what happened in the mirror universe Enterprise episodes to understand this episode. I'm watching Discovery with my wife who has not watched any other Star Trek in her life and she knew what was going on and was not confused. The fact that there is a ship that previously went to the mirror universe without the spore drive is all a person needs to know. The extra details around that ship are superfluous to the story and only adds colour to us Trekkies who have seen every minute of the franchise.

 

[Nyotarules]

It's actually a common trope that villains are coded as gay or queer in some way. Disney is particular has a long history of this. For example, Ursula from The Little Mermaid was designed to resemble Divine, the drag queen from John Waters' movies. They had actually made moves to hire him to be the voice actor, but he died before anything could happen.

I thought all Hollywood villains were English, German or Middle Eastern lol

 

[Jim Steele]

Earlier you said you have to know what happened in the mirror universe Enterprise episodes to understand this episode. I'm watching Discovery with my wife who has not watched any other Star Trek in her life and she knew what was going on and was not confused. The fact that there is a ship that previously went to the mirror universe without the spore drive is all a person needs to know. The extra details around that ship are superfluous to the story and only adds colour to us Trekkies who have seen every minute of the franchise.

Just gonna ditto that I know people who are new to Star Trek, barely have any idea what Enterprise is, and absolutely had no trouble understanding Defiant as a plot point. Generally, right, and I know it's a bold claim in 2018, but generally people are fairly smart and capable of following plots.

 

[Captain Robau]

I thought all Hollywood villains were English, German or Middle Eastern lol

You can also add southerners from the US who are largely vilified due to a geographical location.

 

[Nyotarules]

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Reminds me of my childhood

Star Trek 1970's - Look mum, there's a black lady on tv!

Star Trek 2010's - Look mum, there's a naked black lady and brown man on tv having sex!

 

[Nyotarules]

What is the theory on what "the palace" is (Stamets mentioned it a couple times)??

The Tower of London

 

[jaime]

Agreed. Call someone out for being a dick, but don't censor their opinion (or threat to censor). Agree to disagree with them. I'm on board with that.

I personally think Tilly is the least photogenic lead since DeForrest back in TOS, and it feels a bit notable because usually the leads are shiny. Whether that’s because Hollywood, or because Idealised future, well that’s a different convo. To clarify, I don’t really look at heavy alien make-up leads, though I didn’t fancy Neelix either.
Commenting on the leads appearance seems to be OK if it’s all positive, and I am pretty sure, somewhere out there, there are people all gooey eyed (I said eyes.) about Ash or Lorca or Stamets. Tilly seems to have her admirers out in force atm.
Me...I laugh at the jokes that arise from her character, but she seems to be pretty much an annoying comic relief character. Which puts her back in the Neelix box.
My previous ‘least photogenic since De’ holders include The Doctor, Chakotay, Miles O’Brien...the TNG crew were pretty much all photogenic. And they all have their salivating fanbases too I am sure.
It’s a thing with TV and film actors and actresses, has been since before they had sound. As long as no one is actually full on nasty about it, I don’t see what the point is. This is a job where in many cases ‘attractiveness’ is often part of the job (or you get lumped in as ‘character actor’ and people having ‘leading man’ ‘leading lady’ looks is definitely a thing.) so *shrug*
I actually think L’rell is prettier in or out or make-up, and I don’t even like the new Klingons.

It is quite telling that some of the stills on twitter and stuff often run a beauty pass on shots with Tilly in. But that’s society for you.

None of which is really a comment on the actress, just Trek casting traditions really. I haven’t really seen enough of her to judge her acting (as a viewer with limited acting knowledge) but am not a fan of Tilly.

As a totally aside, did Culbertson actor really call himself and Rapp ‘Space Poufs’in The after show? I was flicking through to see the preview, and that (including him pronouncing the word wrong) took me by surprise but my ears may have tricked me. That show is a mess of noise after all.

 

[jaime]

The Tower of London

It’s gonna be the mind Palace thing from Sherlock in Voqs head isn’t it. She’s gonna mind meld him.

 

[jaime]

I thought all Hollywood villains were English, German or Middle Eastern lol

...and they usually still cast English for those last two groups.

 

[guyute03]

 

[Captain Robau]

I personally think Tilly is the least photogenic lead since DeForrest back in TOS, and it feels a bit notable because usually the leads are shiny. Whether that’s because Hollywood, or because Idealised future, well that’s a different convo. To clarify, I don’t really look at heavy alien make-up leads, though I didn’t fancy Neelix either.

^^^ See, I love it. You disagreed with me in a respectful way. We see things a little differently. Ultimately, for me, it's truly the personality that is the most attractive as cliche as that sounds. Looks are mostly subjective. But she is my type, looks a lot like my wife with the blonde hair and all. Mirror universe Tilly acts like my wife too. I suppose the attraction may lie there.

Do people really feel she is comparable to Neelix? Dude was totally cringeworthy. Worst character in the franchise IMHO.

 

[jaime]

Reminds me of my childhood

Star Trek 1970's - Look mum, there's a black lady on tv!

Star Trek 2010's - Look mum, there's a naked black lady and brown man on tv having sex!

I think I clearly looked away from the screen at the wrong time and missed something.
I find Latif amusing as a lead in DSC...an American show. He’s paler than some of my family and must really fuck with peoples Dulux colour chart of people’s of the world over there. He seems like a local boy done good from my perspective, but I will probably find out he’s from Yorkshire or something. Still. Marina occasionally got the hometown accent slipped in, and O’Brien and Bashir represented a whole nation or four. Bless em.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

You cant say that im afriad. The moderator enforced orthodoxy does allow sexual attraction to be voiced her. You cant say she is ugly either....

It's pretty rare for someone to be admonished just for making a comment on a celebrity's attractiveness as a whole in a positive manner. That usually requires one to be completely tone deaf about the subject matter and say something inappropriate, like say the thread is about how Jane Doe was admitted to the hospital and someone comes along to say "Oh, that's too bad, she's so hot." Or to objectify them and reduce them down to a single body part. But if someone in the context of this episode made an offhand remark about how MU Tilly is attractive, and didn't make it the subject of nineteen consecutive posts or the only thing they had to contribute, I doubt anyone would care.

There's a difference between that and making mean-spirited remarks about an actress's appearance, and making that your primary issue to comment on, and bringing it up over and over again. That's not acceptable. And that what you were asked to stop doing.

So spare us the Thomas Paine routine. You're not a brave rebel fighting the good fight for freedom, you're fighting to repeatedly make fun of a woman's appearance without being called on it and asked to stop.

Some posters and a few mods are being a little too sensitive and close minded to Attentiveluke. He had a different view than expressed by others on this board. I see nothing wrong with him expressing this view (even though I disagree with him). Whatever happened to infinite diversity in infinite combinations? Shouldn't we discuss these types of comments rather than outright call someone a troll - which is one step away from censoring? The guy had an opinion, sheesh.

And about Tilly. People can get mad when I say this or give me an infraction (again) but she is just downright sexy in every capacity. She is cute, competent, smart, can take charge, and can kick ass. I don't care if she is a woman or not or is wearing a miniskirt. The proof is in the pudding. BTW, it's a mole not a wart. I think it makes her relateable.

For a board of people who assert that they are smart and inclusive, some of the posters here make me wonder sometimes.

Yes, whatever happened to infinite diversity in infinite combinations? Apparently it does not apply to anyone with an average body type in a rail thin Hollywood world. Or any kind of skin imperfection. Or any other superficial bullshit which apparently is way more important than discussing the content of the episode to some people.

Why is it that the people who most frequently drag out the IDIC slogan are those who are preaching the exact opposite? It's almost always the people mocking an actress's appearance, or upset about "SJW's" and "snowflakes" and their agenda introducing more LGBTQ characters or women or people of color into the mix. It's cloaking yourself in the language of inclusiveness and open-mindedness while practicing and preaching neither.

Now I'm not saying you specifically are doing the things I mentioned above, but you're carrying water for someone who was, so it's almost as bad.

Also, I don't really appreciate the tactic of saying you've received an infraction when you haven't in order to make it look like you're bravely standing up to THE MAN. We can see your profile and that you haven't received any infractions. Nor is it cool to assert that people here aren't smart just because they don't conform to your view of right and wrong.

 

[Nyotarules]

Saru is an alien. In the Terran Empire, aliens are considered the enemy.

And yet 10 years later MuSpock is XO under MuKirk with his Vulcan bodyguards and 100 years before that the evil Enterprise was more diverse than the good ship TOS Enterprise.

 

[jaime]

^^^ See, I love it. You disagreed with me in a respectful way. We see things a little differently. Ultimately, for me, it's truly the personality that is the most attractive as cliche as that sounds. Looks are mostly subjective. But she is my type, looks a lot like my wife with the blonde hair and all. Mirror universe Tilly acts like my wife too. I suppose the attraction may lie there.

Do people really feel she is comparable to Neelix? Dude was totally cringeworthy. Worst character in the franchise IMHO.

I don’t know if anyone else has compared her to Neelix, but she’s going through very similar development from a worse starting point from my perspective. Neelix a lot of the time was all about pissing people off to get the laughs (which Tilly does too) or just being the comic relief ‘everyman’ character. He gets proper development later, so maybe she will too. They are also verbose as a character trait (which I get accused of, but then, I am not a character in Trek.) and serve mainly as foils (Neelix/Tuvok, Tilly/Burnham/Everyone) Who then end up friends with those fools through some means (Tilly gets accepted fast by Stamets etc, Neelix has to be totally tortured first. Then he gets some dance steps at the end.) Even this Captain Killy stuff is played for laughs, when it could be much more. We’ll see I guess.

Never underestimate the ‘that character reminds me of the mrs’ (or mr) Effect. Or the possible inverse. In my case Tilly reminds me more of my mother.

 

[jaime]

And yet 10 years later MuSpock is XO under MuKirk with his Vulcan bodyguards and 100 years before that the evil Enterprise was more diverse than the good ship TOS Enterprise.

Either they amped it in the writing room for allegory reasons, or Burnham glossed over things. The Terran Empire is diverse but stratified usually when we see it. Maybe they will address it, but Evil Empires are En Vogue. I shouldn’t have capitalised that. It makes it sound like brief nineties pop sensation.

 

[cultcross]

Nobody will not get what has happened this episode.

It really wasn't that complicated, and was spelled out in the episode. The ship traveled to an alternate universe where there is a fascistic Terran Empire. Starfleet is a kind of SS in space where one advances by murder. The Defiant crossed over once before. All of that is clear from this episode alone. You don't have to have seen any other episode to understand all that.

 

[Captain Robau]

Yes, whatever happened to infinite diversity in infinite combinations? Apparently it does not apply to anyone with an average body type in a rail thin Hollywood world. Or any kind of skin imperfection. Or any other superficial bullshit which apparently is way more important than discussing the content of the episode to some people.

Why is it that the people who most frequently drag out the IDIC slogan are those who are preaching the exact opposite? It's almost always the people mocking an actress's appearance, or upset about "SJW's" and "snowflakes" and their agenda introducing more LGBTQ characters or women or people of color into the mix. It's cloaking yourself in the language of inclusiveness and open-mindedness while practicing and preaching neither.

Now I'm not saying you specifically are doing the things I mentioned above, but you're carrying water for someone who was, so it's almost as bad.

Also, I don't really appreciate the tactic of saying you've received an infraction when you haven't in order to make it look like you're bravely standing up to THE MAN. We can see your profile and that you haven't received any infractions. Nor is it cool to assert that people here aren't smart just because they don't conform to your view of right and wrong.

Tried to PM you this but either couldn't or didn't know how, I appreciate your stance on the above. I won't get into specifics, if you want to we can take it to PMs if that's possible but not really needed as I think we all know where we stand. As for the infraction, I received one years ago for posting pics of myself in the pictures thread that was going on and they were a little too risque I suppose and pissed a mod off. It was here https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/picture-post.129496/page-96
I think it was PTrekgirl or someone like that that gave me the infraction. You actually had a few posts in that thread. I just wanted to clarify that and explain the misunderstanding. Glad that it's gone now though. That's awesome! Not trying to get another btw

Back on topic now?

 

[Nyotarules]

I think I clearly looked away from the screen at the wrong time and missed something.
I find Latif amusing as a lead in DSC...an American show. He’s paler than some of my family and must really fuck with peoples Dulux colour chart of people’s of the world over there. He seems like a local boy done good from my perspective, but I will probably find out he’s from Yorkshire or something. Still. Marina occasionally got the hometown accent slipped in, and O’Brien and Bashir represented a whole nation or four. Bless em.

Sadly British Asian and Black British actors do much better in the USA than they do in GB. Apart from EastEnders and maybe HollyOaks what other British tv show bothers to be diverse? As for British films well period dramas seem to make most of the money and those are all English and lilly white.
The USA made Idris Elba, the British entertainment industry are too busy ignoring people like him and catering to upper middle class luvvies instead...hello Cumberbatch!

 

[caper_guy]

I know some folks aren't gung-ho on that particular storyline, but I'm curious to see whether or not Ash is going to fight who he truly is, or accept it and revert back to his old self. Right now, he's horrified, but that could change. Then there's his murder of Culber, which was crazy. I honestly have no idea where it's going to go.

I'm wondering, too, if Ash remembers what he does when Voq is in charge. He knows something is wrong, but can he comprehend what his other self is saying/doing. Talk about split personality!