Perhaps Lorca left the MU because he was too compassionate and gentle compared with everybody else, but he's turned out to be too aggressive and power-hungry for the Prime reality. Maybe he's looking for some way to bridge the gap.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x09 - "Into the Forest I Go"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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Perhaps Lorca left the MU because he was too compassionate and gentle compared with everybody else, but he's turned out to be too aggressive and power-hungry for the Prime reality. Maybe he's looking for some way to bridge the gap.
I think you're bang on with the psychology, although I don't think that means he's from an alternate universe - just someone who has been driven to the brink of inhumanity by war and tragedy, and finds validation, as you say, in bringing his crew along with. His pep talk (and indeed his whole attitude - referring to Tyler as 'soldier') is in direct contrast to Burnham's wish that Tyler get to live his life at peace.
Screencaps? I saw her pull the trigger, but the phaser indicator was already red (kill) not blue (stun) when she took aim. I may have missed her flipping it as she raised the barrel though.
I'm pretty sure it shows her flipping from blue to red. It was a conscientious decision.
However, after rewatching the scene, I do need to walk back my "murder" comment somewhat (in regards to this, not to L'Rell). At the point she switches, aims, and fires, we the audience have seen that T'Kuvma has already impaled Georgiou in a manner that suggests a mortal wound, but Burnham can't yet know for sure whether it is too late to save her or not, from where she's standing. Saru doesn't tell her he's lost the captain's life sign until just after she fires. In her mind, she was doing what she thought was necessary to save Georgiou, in the moment. She was just a split second too late. I'm sure that the utter futility of the act, and thus the entire preceding exercise, does add significant weight to her guilt and self-reproach, though. The whole debacle was still a huge fuckup on her part, which she'd strive not to repeat. And I'm sure she does at least question her own motives. Or should, if she doesn't.
-MMoM
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I think it was a retirement jump. Lorca should have been more convincing of not wanting him to jump though.
They should have left Stamets somewhat ravaged. He maybe should have insisted while disclosing he wasn’t 100% perfect but still wanted to do it.
I guess they needed a way to bridge to the next episode and could have done it better.
The fact her hands were bound might be a clue she wasn't a guard.
Observation: It's interesting how the rapidly-escalating circumstances of Burnham's heat-of-the-moment shooting of T'Kuvma, and this discussion of it, have somewhat mirrored a great number of recent and past police shootings, and the discourse surrounding them in the United States of late. I suspect that may be quite an intentional parallel, rather than an entirely accidental or coincidental one, and that obvious prospect only just now occurred to me. I love Star Trek.
Anyone interested in screenshots from DSC can check out this site. They don't have this particular episode up just yet, but it's a great resource for future reference.
Yeah, what's up with no one on duty in the brig? It was the same on the Shenzhou in Ep2 when that guy stumbled into the brig by mistake on the way to Sickbay. No duty officer there either.
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Then again, the whole point of the venture was to prevent the war from happening in the first place which requires her not to martyr T'Kuvma. The emotional response to his actions with Georgiou was still a bad call from the standpoint of their mission even if she somehow could save Georgiou.
However, after rewatching the scene, I do need to walk back my "murder" comment somewhat (in regards to this, not to L'Rell). At the point she switches, aims, and fires, we the audience have seen that T'Kuvma has already impaled Georgiou in a manner that suggests a mortal wound, but Burnham can't yet know for sure whether it is too late to save her or not, from where she's standing. Saru doesn't tell her he's lost the captain's life sign until just after she fires. In her mind, she was doing what she thought was necessary to save Georgiou, in the moment. She was just a split second too late. I'm sure that the utter futility of the act, and thus the entire preceding exercise, does add significant weight to her guilt and self-reproach, though. The whole debacle was still a huge fuckup on her part, which she'd strive not to repeat. And I'm sure she does at least question her own motives. Or should, if she doesn't.
-MMoM
Yes indeed. That's exactly what I meant by "the utter futility of the act, and thus the entire preceding exercise..."
It was all for nothing.
She tried to do what she thought was the logical thing, but random chance and her own emotions got in the way. The best laid plans of mice and men...
What amazes me is the double standard that some seem to have concerning Burnhall and Lorca. The entire point of her mission was to take T'Kuvma alive, she deliberately kills him, and she is credited with good intentions. Lorca risks court martial to save the Pahvans, and it is just an evil plot by him that they haven't figured out yet.
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We have had reason to suspect and question Lorca's nature and motives long before now. He was introduced as a morally-ambiguous character from the get-go. And what about all that stuff with Cornwell, and destroying his own ship, killing his own crew to "save" them from the Klingons, yet obviously sparing himself? We don't know the whole truth of what happened yet, of course. But we are definitely not meant to think he's any sort of innocent or mere unfortunate, by any stretch.What amazes me is the double standard that some seem to have concerning Burnhall and Lorca. The entire point of her mission was to take T'Kuvma alive, she deliberately kills him, and she is credited with good inten intentions. Lorca risks court martial to save the Pahvans, and it is just an evil plot by him that they haven't figured out yet.
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C
Captain pl1ngpl0ng
Guest
Great!
G
Gonzo
Guest
Finally got a chance to sit down and watch this weeks episode.
Love the scene of the Discovery flying towards us after the recap, really like the short neck the Discovery has, its a great look.
Nice shot as we leave Burnham and Tyler through the porthole, looks like his quarters are on the outside edge of the inner ring, not enough in the shot to judge scale though.
Seems at the very least Tyler is some kind of sleeper agent, although it is just as likely he is really Voq, I suspect Lorca already knows though.
Great shot in the shuttle bay looks towards the planet, the camera work and effects are top notch.
Looks like they could have crossed into the mirror universe, or moved in time forwards or backwards, I really don't think they are in Kansas any more, we know this is 10 years before TOS which means its at least 10 years before In a Mirror Darkly, could we see the Mirror Enterprise 1701 rather than the original.
Was it Stamets intention to do that, Lorcas, or was it a simple cause and effect due to Stamets condition, I do so love the greyness of it all, for me my money is on a simple accident due to Stamets condition.
That bridge window is at least 8 feet high so it will help with scaling.
Great episode this week, the show goes into hiatus in a strong place, with many things still up in the air but it did give us a few crumbs to think about until the new year.
I give it a 9.5 as I want to keep the 10 for what is to come.
I cant think of any Star Trek series since TOS that has had such a strong first half season.
Love the scene of the Discovery flying towards us after the recap, really like the short neck the Discovery has, its a great look.
Nice shot as we leave Burnham and Tyler through the porthole, looks like his quarters are on the outside edge of the inner ring, not enough in the shot to judge scale though.
Seems at the very least Tyler is some kind of sleeper agent, although it is just as likely he is really Voq, I suspect Lorca already knows though.
Great shot in the shuttle bay looks towards the planet, the camera work and effects are top notch.
Looks like they could have crossed into the mirror universe, or moved in time forwards or backwards, I really don't think they are in Kansas any more, we know this is 10 years before TOS which means its at least 10 years before In a Mirror Darkly, could we see the Mirror Enterprise 1701 rather than the original.
Was it Stamets intention to do that, Lorcas, or was it a simple cause and effect due to Stamets condition, I do so love the greyness of it all, for me my money is on a simple accident due to Stamets condition.
That bridge window is at least 8 feet high so it will help with scaling.
Great episode this week, the show goes into hiatus in a strong place, with many things still up in the air but it did give us a few crumbs to think about until the new year.
I give it a 9.5 as I want to keep the 10 for what is to come.
I cant think of any Star Trek series since TOS that has had such a strong first half season.
You know, I'm going to have to agree with Refuge on this one point re: Burnham's mental state. I have never believed Burnham suffered from PTSD. I think at this point, it has become fanon.
After her encounter with the torchbearer and her return to the Shenzhou, Burnham does have that dream about her faltering during her test when she hears the question about the Klingons. But the main point of the scene is not her faltering, or to put forth the notion that she suffers from PTSD from knowing the Klingons killed her parents, but the advise Sarek gave her, which was to use logic to quell emotion.
That is the reason she then contacts Sarek, a person who is completely logical and has more recent experience or knowledge, about encounters with Klingons. Burnham logically seeks advise on Shenzhou's predicament from an "expert". Sarek cautions that what the Vulcans did might not work for the humans, but to Burnham, the Vulcan method had been used and proven to be effective. The Starfleet method, on the other hand, had not been tested. Thus, Burnham chooses the "Vulcan Hello".
She knows shooting first goes against Starfleet regulations, so she knows she will receive push back from Georgiou so she logically, but illegally, disables Georgiou and implements her plan. Burnham moves in a methodical and logical way which, I think argues against her actions being motivated by illness.
But I think you're completely wrong here. As other have pointed out, Burnham would not have killed an unarmed Klingon even on a Klingon ship during war. She did kill T'Kuvma and it may have been in retaliation, but he was armed (and combative) and would have killed Burnham if he'd gotten the chance.
There is nothing in that dialogue that indicates Lorca is manipulating Stamets. The conclusion you draw is simply your interpretation of the dialogue based, I guess, on what you think you know about Lorca. I'm not saying that it's impossible that Lorca was manipulating Stamets, just that there is no on screen evidence of it, at least not yet.This is the dialogue:
It's a textbook case of passive-aggressive manipulation. Getting someone to do what you want them to, which you know is against their best interests, by letting them think it's their own idea. Lorca is the captain, is well aware of the grave risks Stamets has already taken, the ill effects he's already suffering, the additional risks posed to him by doing another jump, and his desire to stop. And he knows that regular warp would get them back to the base just fine, and that there's no pressing need for Stamets to do another jump just for that. But does he insist on this, for Stamets' own good? Does he refuse Stamets' offer to give yet more, after giving so much already? Does he order Stamets to go to sickbay and get some rest? No, he does not. He strokes Stamets' ego and curiosity. He emphasizes the implication of a grave threat to Stamets' loved ones and colleagues. He lets Stamets feel personally indebted to him and obligated to do something he is not. And don't forget, this is all coming on the heels of his earlier maneuverings, stringing Stamets along with the tantalizing prospect—no pun intended—of discovering how to access parallel universes and such. I'm really surprised that anyone can miss this. I hope no one ever tries it on you!
-MMoM
If anyone ever tries to manipulate me into helping to get to an alternate universe, I hope I fall for it, because this one kinda sucks.
Why would you think that emotionally ill people can't still use logic? Of course she was using logic. But she was mis-using it, her judgment being clouded by emotion. The fact that she ignored the also-quite-logical counterpoints that Sarek and Georgiou and Anderson and Saru voiced indicates she had already made up her mind and would not listen to reason, whether she was conscious of this or not. She was almost burtsing at the seams when she talked about "targeting their neck and cutting off their head." She tried to do the sort of thing we might think Spock would have done, but she couldn't pull it off because she wasn't in a balanced state of mind, and this distorted her reasoning. And we saw the results. Even if she had succeeded in blowing up T'Kuvma and his followers then and there before things went any further, it would only have proven his accusation of "we come in peace" and "Starfleet doesn't fire the first shot" being nothing but empty lies. It wouldn't have solved anything.
It's based on being familiar with and able to recognize obvious and well-documented patterns of passive-aggresssive behavior in real life. But even if we choose to be gullible and ignore the obvious subtext, the fact remains that any and all onus for whatever consequences befall Stamets and the rest of them belongs on Lorca, as the captain. The decision to offer may have been Stamets' but the decision to accept was his, and his alone.There is nothing in that dialogue that indicates Lorca is manipulating Stamets. The conclusion you draw is simply your interpretation of the dialogue based, I guess, on what you think you know about Lorca. I'm not saying that it's impossible that Lorca was manipulating Stamets, just that there is no on screen evidence of it, at least not yet.
If anyone ever tries to manipulate me into helping to get to an alternate universe, I hope I fall for it, because this one kinda sucks.
-MMoM
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Which is exactly why it would be dumb of the writers to do the predictable thing and make him villainous. Much better to have the twist be he's actually heroic in the end.
Not that I'm saying they won't be dumb, but why give the audience exactly what is expected?
Well, I never said should become a "villain" at all. I agree that the longer he remains a morally ambiguous character, the better. He's probably my second favorite character on the show, after Burnham. However, if he's going to be a "hero" in the final analysis, then he should be a decidedly tragic one.
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