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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x09 - "Into the Forest I Go"

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Still did it and she was fully Starfleet then.
She was emotionally compromised. It was not a rational, calculated act. In fact, it went directly against the very objective of her own plan that she'd come there to carry out in the first place. She fucked up big time, and she knew it instantly. It was one of her lowest points, the last in a series of gargantuan mistakes she made that day, and has been trying to make up for ever since. Why would she repeat it? L'Rell made no aggressive move toward anyone there. She was not engaging them as a combatant. She is more valuable as a prisoner, anyway. Not to mention a sentient life!
 
GTyMagQ.jpg


looks like he deliberately sent his ship to the unknown there
 
She was emotionally compromised. It was not a rational, calculated act. In fact, it went directly against the very objective of her own plan that she'd come there to carry out in the first place. She fucked up big time, and she knew it instantly. It was the last in a series of gigantic mistakes she made that day, and has been trying to make up for ever since. Why would she repeat it? L'Rell made no aggressive move toward anyone there. She is more valuable as a prisoner, anyway. Not to mention a sentient life!
Yes it was a rational, 'calculated act' when she wanted to shoot first when she took command of the Shenzhou. It was an 'accident' when she killed the torchbearer. It was 'emotional payback' for T'Kuvma when Burnham had her phaser set to kill and killed him. Michael had no intent of taking L'Rell as a prisoner so that was not her clever motivation. L'Rell latched herself onto Tyler during transport. Michael certainly did not secure L'Rell as a prisoner to either transport or to protect an Admiral who could not walk or Tyler who was clearly suffering by just the mere sight of L'Rell. I actually don't think Michael should have killed L'Rell but she was a danger. Two of her past victims were in the room with her, lol.
 
And have fans going on and on about her being a cold hearted killer who murders helpless prisoners?

She didn't know that L'Rell was a prisoner. For all she knew, L'Rell was a guard or something. She should have been perceived as a threat. And you neutralize a threat - not leave them stunned so they can wake up and raise the alarm.

They're at war with the Klingons, not playing pattycake.

* *

Star fleet officers aren't in the habit of shooting to kill.

In war, on an enemy ship, they damned well should be. Or just kill themselves because that attitude is a death sentence.
 
This is a minor issue, but in retrospect, I hate how the Klingon sarcophagus ship appeared to not move around in space at all. It made me wonder why cracking the cloak was even needed at all, because all the Discovery needed to do was fire a spread of photon torpedoes exactly where it was before it cloaked, and they'd hit it.

Then, they wouldn't have been able to figure out how to defeat the cloak.
 
It's just my impression, or in a single Discovery episode we get more Klingon language than the entire past Trek shows and movies combined..?
 
Lorca was hesitant to send Burnham, but did not anticipate Tyler might have some issues with facing Klingons again due his past experiences?

Lorca had seen Tyler kill Klingons aboard a Klingon ship. For all we know, he went with Tyler to kill Klingons aboard a Klingon ship every morning from 10:30 to 11:30. What's to worry?

And why did Tyler say they did not expect to find human prisoners? The admiral was captured by Kol just recently, had they already forgotten her?

No reason to think Cornwell would have been captured by Kol. After all, she went to meet Kol's enemies.

Also, why had the Klingons just left Cornwall and L'Rell in the corpse room?

They specifically called that one their brig. Everybody seemed to agree.

The real question is, why did L'rell originally drag Cornwell's "corpse" there? The place had at least one sacrophagus, and seemed like a body disposal room; indeed, this was no doubt the reason the room was adjacent to the cermonial bridge where the burials of heroes were held. A logical place to hide Cornwell, then. But Kol, who apparently held the more common "bodies are empty shells, not to mention delicious" views, had turned the room into a general pit into which he would throw those he no longer needed.

But the absolutely weirdest bit was the Cornwall's shuttle. Why would they send her by the shuttle, and how could it arrive to it's destination before the Discovery would made it in the starbase?

Two different starbases there: therapy at SB 88, Discovery layover at SB 46. But this makes things sorta worse: Starfleet has two bases within striking range of Pahvo, including one within shuttlecraft range, and nevertheless it falls on their fastest and longest-range ship to perform the mission?

And if it takes three hours to warp from SB 46 to Pahvo, why isn't Starfleet sending an extra ship or two to Pahvo instead of withdrawing the Discovery once Kol is toast? The planet obviously is no more protected now than it was previously, and Lorca does claim the Klingons are coming (if only to bait Stamets into doing one final jump).

I am also worried about future plot twists about Tyler and Lorca, which could undermine the great character development done with these characters.

If there are no future plot twists, stagnation kills the characters. It's the usual curse: use the Borg and they are ruined, fail to use the Borg and they are ruined. At least this time it isn't the usual "let them have their romance and they are ruined" catch.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It probably wouldn't bother me being victimized by that Klingon lady.
Real classy there. :rolleyes:

To all: especially in light of the current discussion about sexism it's kind of disappointing to see juvenile comments about Klingon breasts or posters expressing their desire to see other Discovery characters in sex scenes. Let's all just take a good look at what we are posting before hitting “Reply”. Thank you.
 
Yes it was a rational, 'calculated act' when she wanted to shoot first when she took command of the Shenzhou. It was an 'accident' when she killed the torchbearer. It was 'emotional payback' for T'Kuvma when Burnham had her phaser set to kill and killed him. Michael had no intent of taking L'Rell as a prisoner so that was not her clever motivation. L'Rell latched herself onto Tyler during transport. Michael certainly did not secure L'Rell as a prisoner to either transport or to protect an Admiral who could not walk or Tyler who was clearly suffering by just the mere sight of L'Rell. I actually don't think Michael should have killed L'Rell but she was a danger. Two of her past victims were in the room with her, lol.
I believe your understanding may benefit from watching again, on all counts. Burnham's encounter with the Torch-bearer triggered a flashback (which came in the form of a dream, and nested inside another flashback) to the Klingon terror raid of her early childhood, a very serious trauma from which she had never truly recovered. From that moment, she was not thinking clearly, despite believing herself to be. Sarek and Georgiou both tried to reason with her and make her see the logical and ethical flaws in her behavior and suggestions, but she could not be dissuaded, because she was in fact acting impulsively and irrationally out of deep-seated emotional trauma and prejudice, despite in her own mind having an ostensibly logical justification for what she did. That's called rationalization. It's much like Kirk telling Spock they should just let the Klingons die in TUC. On the one hand it might seem superficially reasonable to refuse aid to those who have desired and pursued your destruction in the past. But that's not really what it was about, underneath it all. It was about the fact that Klingons killed his son, and he hated them for it.

L'Rell was very obviously unarmed and injured. She did absolutely nothing aggressive in that scene. Watch it again. Please.

She didn't know that L'Rell was a prisoner. For all she knew, L'Rell was a guard or something. She should have been perceived as a threat. And you neutralize a threat - not leave them stunned so they can wake up and raise the alarm.

They're at war with the Klingons, not playing pattycake.
They found her in the same position as Cornwell, by all appearances. She was not acting as a combatant, and gave no indication of such intent. She didn't attempt to raise any alarm. She attempted to talk to them. She was wounded and unarmed. Stunned is neutralized, in this context. To have killed her would have been gratuitous and unnecessary. And murder. Not lawful warfare. Following rules of engagement is not "playing pattycake"!

Stamets has candy floss for brains now. He was in no condition to be making any decisions.
Exactly! And does this, to you, mean he gets the blame instead of Lorca? Not to me.

I'm going by the actual dialogue between Lorca and Stamets. There was nothing on screen that would indicate that Lorca was psychologically manipulating Stamets. I'll leave guessing what was in the characters' minds to others.
This is the dialogue:

LORCA: They wanted to give me a medal for leading the mission, saving Pahvo, if you can believe the irony. I told them to give it to you.
STAMETS: That's, um, not necessary, Sir.
LORCA: You made the jumps. You risked everything. None of it would have been possible without you. You did so well the Klingons are on their way, hellbent on revenge. I wish we could stay and fight, but Starfleet wants us back at Starbase 46.
STAMETS: Do you need me to jump?
LORCA: I would never ask that of you. You've done enough. We'll warp to Starbase 46. We'll be fine.
STAMETS: But the Klingons! I'll do one more jump, to get the crew back to safety. They've risked enough already.
LORCA: If you're sure...
STAMETS: [nods]
LORCA: Thank you. We're going to win this war on account of you Mister Stamets. After this, it's a whole new chapter for Discovery. You've opened a door to a whole new era of exploration. The data provided by the micro-jumps will push us closer than we've ever been before to understanding the mysteries of the universe...
STAMETS: No, Captain, I mean only one more jump. After we get back, I'm done. Traveling the mycelial network is like co-mingling with the most abstruse blips of our celestial existence. I've seen these stars through a lens no one else has access to, and that has to be enough for me, because I need Starfleet's best doctors to examine my condition, and figure out what's been happening to me.
LORCA: [nods] One last jump, then. You've served the Federation honorably, Lieutenant.
STAMETS: Well, I'll always have you to thank for the view.
LORCA: Mmm. You ready?

It's a textbook case of passive-aggressive manipulation. Getting someone to do what you want them to, which you know is against their best interests, by letting them think it's their own idea. Lorca is the captain, is well aware of the grave risks Stamets has already taken, the ill effects he's already suffering, the additional risks posed to him by doing another jump, and his desire to stop. And he knows that regular warp would get them back to the base just fine, and that there's no pressing need for Stamets to do another jump just for that. But does he insist on this, for Stamets' own good? Does he refuse Stamets' offer to give yet more, after giving so much already? Does he order Stamets to go to sickbay and get some rest? No, he does not. He strokes Stamets' ego and curiosity. He emphasizes the implication of a grave threat to Stamets' loved ones and colleagues. He lets Stamets feel personally indebted to him and obligated to do something he is not. And don't forget, this is all coming on the heels of his earlier maneuverings, stringing Stamets along with the tantalizing prospect—no pun intended—of discovering how to access parallel universes and such. I'm really surprised that anyone can miss this. I hope no one ever tries it on you!

-MMoM:D
 
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Oh, it's easy to miss the first time through all right - which is sort of the point.

What really convinces Stamets is the threat of the Klingons to his friends, a threat that Lorca may have made up of whole cloth in the first place and only presents in extremely abstract (and nicely deniable!) terms here. Were Stamets to stop and think about it, he'd notice there's no need to jump, Klingons or no Klingons, but a good con man doesn't leave it at that: Lorca sends two simultaneous messages, the other one being about the adventure involved, and these reinforce each other emotionally without doing that objectively.

What is ambiguous here is whether Lorca is eeeeeevil or not when practicing his natural art of manipulating everybody. Some people just happen to be like that, and it takes a bit of extra mental effort to play their game for the zero stakes involved.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Still did it and she was fully Starfleet then.
So was Kirk when he deliberately blew up his own ship just to kill Kruge's boarding party, then beamed down to the planet and shot (and killed) Kruge's remaining guard, then eventually killed Kruge himself. In fact, the only Klingon Kirk DIDN'T kill was Maltz, and then apparently because Maltz specifically asked him to.
 
Also, why would Starfleet need to trick Lorca into coming in? Why would the Vulcan admiral not simply have ordered Lorca to come in to answer charges?
Because Lorca is crazy and the Admiral has reason to believe that he would probably disobey that kind of order and do something highly irrational.

Lorca may, or may not have diverted the ship, but if he did, I doubt seriously if the reason will turn out to be that Lorca was fleeing Starfleet.
I would be amazed if that wasn't at least part of the reason.
 
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