Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x04 - "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry"

[Kemaiku]

Enterprise definitely suffered from all kinds of production drama and aired at a bad time.

If they had maybe given it a few years and removed the time travel stuff altogether, thought out the characters arc and started out with the season 4 budget and aesthetic (set changes) it could have been so good.

Enterprise's wasted potential pains me more than Voyagers.

 

[Commander Loskene]

I think in the case of those who strongly dislike it, the reason seems to boil down to it being different from their preferred version of Trek, whatever particular series that may be.

I like all Trek series for differing reasons. The weakest one - Enterprise - suffered from a lot of problems (including being so creatively challenged that they called the ship "Enterprise") but they had their good episodes. I'm still waiting for Discovery to have a good episode. The shows have very little to do with Trek. They use Trek emblems, Trek looking laser guns and have a Trek-like ship, but other than that I haven't seen the Trekness. Hopefully they'll infuse some deeper elements in future episodes.

 

[Commander Loskene]

I'm a bit shocked that no-one commented negatively on the rotating saucer section. What was that for? Yes, part of the shroom drive but "how does a rotating saucer fit in?" Shouldn't the whole ship rotate or something? I guess there's no established physics for magical spores. Maybe they're made out of Midi-chlorians?

I felt like I was watching Thunderbirds during that sequence.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I like all Trek series for differing reasons. The weakest one - Enterprise - suffered from a lot of problems (including being so creatively challenged that they called the ship "Enterprise") but they had their good episodes. I'm still waiting for Discovery to have a good episode. The shows have very little to do with Trek. They use Trek emblems, Trek looking laser guns and have a Trek-like ship, but other than that I haven't seen the Trekness. Hopefully they'll infuse some deeper elements in future episodes.

What is 'Trekness' exactly?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm a bit shocked that no-one commented negatively on the rotating saucer section. What was that for? Yes, part of the shroom drive but "how does a rotating saucer fit in?" Shouldn't the whole ship rotate or something? I guess there's no established physics for magical spores. Maybe they're made out of Midi-chlorians?

I felt like I was watching Thunderbirds during that sequence.

What's the physics behind magic rocks?

 

[Commander Loskene]

What is 'Trekness' exactly?

Something that all the other shows had, and this doesn't yet. In other words, if you removed the retro phasers, ship shape and trek logo (and the new, slower Klingons), what is Trek about Discovery so far?

 

[Commander Loskene]

What's the physics behind magic rocks?

I dunno, but magical spores will make your ship spin!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Something that all the other shows had, and this doesn't yet. In other words, if you removed the retro phasers, ship shape and trek logo (and the new, slower Klingons), what is Trek about Discovery so far?

Trek told all types of stories. There is no one thing that makes Star Trek "Star Trek" Ask a dozen people and get a dozen answers.
So, what is that "something" to you?

I dunno, but magical spores will make your ship spin!

The ship probably spins even without the spores.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Something that all the other shows had, and this doesn't yet. In other words, if you removed the retro phasers, ship shape and trek logo (and the new, slower Klingons), what is Trek about Discovery so far?

Trekness is open to interpretation and subject to individual experience. For me Star Trek was always at it's best when it explored how complex it is to be human as opposed when it showed how perfect every human in the 24th century is. Seeing someone fall, be imperfect and then work to better themselves as Burnham is on the way to doing is 'trekness' to it's core. As Picard once said 'we work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity'. In last week's episode, Burnham was the only person who thought that the Tardigrade was NOT a hostile monster. Burnham used science and deductive reasoning to figure out that it was a docile creature that ate spores and only attacked out of fear. Burnham refused to judge the creature based on its behaviour and outward appearance, how is that not trekness?

There is quite a bit of trekness in Discovery depending on your point view of course. What is Trekness for you?

 

[Commander Loskene]

Trek told all types of stories. There is no one thing that makes Star Trek "Star Trek" Ask a dozen people and get a dozen answers.
So, what is that "something" to you?
The ship probably spins even without the spores.

I'm interested in finding out; I hope they get into more detail on it soon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm interested in finding out; I hope they get into more detail on it soon.

I was talking about the other shows. What's the common thing that makes them Star Trek to you?

 

[Longinus]

I'm a bit shocked that no-one commented negatively on the rotating saucer section. What was that for?

I didn't particularly like it. It seemed gimmicky and toy-like. But I really can't get worked up about it, considering it is still the least stupid part of this drive.

 

[Commander Loskene]

Trekness is open to interpretation and subject to individual experience. For me Star Trek was always at it's best when it explored how complex it is to be human as opposed when it showed how perfect every human in the 24th century is. Seeing someone fall, be imperfect and then work to better themselves as Burnham is on the way to doing is 'trekness' to it's core. As Picard once said 'we work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity'. In last week's episode, Burnham was the only person who thought that the Tardigrade was NOT a hostile monster. Burnham used science and deductive reasoning to figure out that it was a docile creature that ate spores and only attacked out of fear. Burnham refused to judge the creature based on its behaviour and outward appearance, how is that not trekness?

There is quite a bit of trekness in Discovery depending on your point view of course. What is Trekness for you?

What is trekness? That would be a long answer. Let me say instead that I agree with you: everyone will (and should) have a different answer for that question.

I think that everyone may agree that one thing all the Trek shows had in common was that they always revolved around the interaction and the shared experience of the main characters. They cared for each other. With the 1st person episodes so far it hasn't really been able to develop that at all. Characters in STD mostly appear aloof.

 

[Ometiklan]

I didn't particularly like it. It seemed gimmicky and toy-like. But I really can't get worked up about it, considering it is still the least stupid part of this drive.

I will be interested in seeing your opinion of the spore drive after the coming pisode as apparently we are going to learn a lot more about it. So far we have few details on how it actually works other than there are spores, they have spread across the galaxy (and beyond?) via panspermia, they exist on some kind of mycelial plane/network through which then can communicate and or move, somehow a giant tardigrade is symbiotic with them, and somehow you can harness the power of the spores to travel anywhere in the universe (that has been mapped by the spores?).

A lot of unknowns here, so I know I am interested in seeing what the writers have invented for the "nuts and bolts" of it. SInce Bormanis is on staff as a writer and not just science consultant, I hope he had a little more pull making the science decent.

 

[Nerys Myk]

What is trekness? That would be a long answer. Let me say instead that I agree with you: everyone will (and should) have a different answer for that question.

I think that everyone may agree that one thing all the Trek shows had in common was that they always revolved around the interaction and the shared experience of the main characters. They cared for each other. With the 1st person episodes so far it hasn't really been able to develop that at all. Characters in STD mostly appear aloof.

Well in Burnham's case she just met them a couple of days ago. We've seen a bit of interaction.

 

[Commander Loskene]

Well in Burnham's case she just met them a couple of days ago. We've seen a bit of interaction.

Very little interaction. And the rest of the crew has apparently been together for a while and they don't interact differently. It's early in the season but it's not happening yet.

 

[Succubint]

Where No Man Has Gone Before was all about Extra Sensory Perception and space aliens zapping two of the crew which magically enhanced their "ESP quotient". Yep, Starfleet apparently measured everyone's levels. Gary Mitchell gets turned into 'a God' who can terraform a barren landscape in seconds at will.

Charlie X and The Squire of Gothos also dealt with aliens (or a human transformed by aliens) who could seemingly magically do whatever they wanted with just a thought. Or the use of a 'device' like the Transmuter in the ridiculous S2 Catspaw episode - basically a very special Halloween ep which featured witches, a giant cat and crew members acting like zombies.

There are tons of TOS storylines which have no scientific plausibility or 'physics behind it' at all.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

What is trekness? That would be a long answer. Let me say instead that I agree with you: everyone will (and should) have a different answer for that question.

I think that everyone may agree that one thing all the Trek shows had in common was that they always revolved around the interaction and the shared experience of the main characters. They cared for each other. With the 1st person episodes so far it hasn't really been able to develop that at all. Characters in STD mostly appear aloof.

That's equivocating. You said Discovery doesn't have a sense of Trekness, so what is the Trekness that it doesn't have? If you're going to make a claim like that, be willing to provide your evidence to support it.

The first two episodes of the series involved a battle, the mutiny instigated by burnham and her subsequent court martial. Burnham is then incarcerated for 6 months. The time span between episode 3 and 4 is less than a day. No one trusts Burnham yet, and Saru is understandably angry at Burnham because she violated the trust that he had for her and because of her actions someone that they both cared about deeply, died. It would be unrealistic at this point for everyone to be friends with her, although Tilly is trying. Characters in DS9 appeared aloof as well, Kira hated starfleet, Odo hated everyone. In Voyager Chakotay didn't like Tom paris initially and he was generally aloof to Tuvok. Hell, even Picard was initially aloof with his entire crew. Aloof picard lasted until the third season.

 

[Commander Loskene]

I said earlier:

And the rest of the crew has apparently been together for a while and they don't interact differently. It's early in the season but it's not happening yet.

Am I incorrect?

 

[Commander Loskene]

I said earlier:


Am I incorrect?

I meant this as a reply to mickmike. Sorry for messing up the thread.