Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time

[McDuff]

I feel in the Star Trek future the problems related to the materialistic world of today (food, acquisition of needed goods, current main diseases, etc) are resolved due to advancement in technology mainly replicator, space travel, holodeck and medicine. But the Star Trek world is still full of danger, evil aliens and perils of space exploration. It's human vs the universe and everybody is armed with phasers.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Discovery is rather depressing in its mood so far. War, a dead Captain, a lead character who has lost her rank and way. Mean people and visuals that are dark and murky. Let's hope it offers some light soon.

There's a story from Fifty Year Mission II that I often use to demonstrate how problematic Gene Rodenberry's vision was. Hans Beimler and Rick Manning had written a story about the Picard and the Enterprise discovering an active genocide taking place. It was a story that was close to Beimler, his father having been one of the first people to document anti-semitic violence in Nazi Germany, and the entire writing staff was excited by the script. Roddenberry rejected the script, telling Beimler and Manning that if Picard found a planet where the Holocaust was taking places, the Enterprise would have to warp away. They would do nothing.

I love that Star Trek dealt with serious political and cultural topics, but Roddenberry himself had problematic and,sometimes, disturbing ideas about what that meant. I can thank him for creating the forum, but when it came to providing Star Trek with moral depth, others stepped up to the plate.

 

[Nyotarules]

And this is why I don't understand cynical Star Trek "fans"

Maybe because if Star Trek ceased to exist as a franchise tomorrow, the sun will still shine, the moon will still come out and there will still be oxygen in the air to breath. IOW this is a First world issue, its fun but not life threatening.

 

[Nyotarules]

Glory unto the ratings bomb.

Peace in the Federation, goodwill to all sentient beings, (especially those we can fraternise with).

 

[Nyotarules]

This "bright optimistic future" is frequently overstated in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

The bright future is humanity (all nation states) stopped killing each other, stopped practising racism and other negative isms against each other, the whole of earth is middle class, poverty is gone but humans have no problems transferring their past negative attitudes and expansionist, semi colonial tendencies to the rest of the galaxy and other species e.g Klingons.

 

[Vger23]

The bright future was humanity stopped killing each other, stopped practising racism and other negative isms against each other, the whole of earth is middle class, poverty is gone but humans have no problems transferring their past negative attitudes and expansionist, semi colonial tendencies to the rest of the galaxy and other species e.g Klingons.

Yup

 

[mattyhugh]

Discovery is new and is defiantly influenced by modern TV tropes. Ones that seem incongruent with the 24th century Trek. However if one is able strip away the nostalgia candy coating of TOS, a lot of the less evolved humans are congruent. Sure we’re not supposed to laugh at Harry Mudd any more, because we now realize he’s a human trafficker. Human trafficking “space pimp” wouldn’t and shouldn’t be played for laughs in 2017.

 

[Greg Cox]

TOS was never "utopian." It was optimistic, yes, in that it was set in a future that was better than today, but the 23rd century was by no means perfect and neither were the people who lived there, especially out on the rough-and-tumble final frontier.

Hell, TOS tended to distrust utopias. Anytime Kirk stumbled onto a society that was too perfect and too peaceful and where the people were too nice, you could be sure that there was a fly in the ointment somewhere: alien spores, an insane computer, etc.

Remember "This Side of Paradise"? After the spores are eradicated, Kirk is relieved to find out that the colonists are already losing their tempers and arguing with each other--just like normal human beings, thank goodness!

 

[Vger23]

TOS was never "utopian." It was optimistic, yes, in that it was set in a future that was better than today, but the 23rd century was by no means perfect and neither were the people who lived there, especially out on the rough-and-tumble final frontier.

Hell, TOS tended to distrust utopias. Anytime Kirk stumbled onto a society that was too perfect and too peaceful and where the people were too nice, you could be sure that there was a fly in the ointment somewhere: alien spores, an insane computer, etc.

Remember "This Side of Paradise"? After the spores are eradicated, Kirk is relieved to find out that the colonists are already losing their tempers and arguing with each other--just like normal human beings, thank goodness!

Right- there was a huge and distinct difference between "an optimistic future" vs. a "utopian" future.

One made sense and was great for developing interesting sci-fi drama around.

The other was not.

 

[McDuff]

Discovery is new and is defiantly influenced by modern TV tropes. Ones that seem incongruent with the 24th century Trek.

I don't think it's modern TV. Star Trek always has been relatively distinctive in the world of sci-fi TV and movie in presenting a more optimistic, scientifically progressive world for humanity.

Most Sci-fi, even in the 50s and 60s, always present us a more pessimistic view of science and the future. Post-apocalyptic world, alien or tyrant taking over earth, nuclear/environmental holocaust, science creating monsters, freedom abolished, war with human-made android, dystopian world, etc, etc. It is based on our fear of science and the future. It serve as a warning of things to avoid. Star Trek posit that in the world of space travel and progressing science, humanity will settle their petty political squabbles and more current problems related to our materialistic world would be solved (poverty, hunger, war, many current diseases, etc). Technology like replicators, space travel, holodeck, advanced medicine solving many ills of our current time. In the world of Star Trek, it's humanity vs the universe. The Star Trek future world is still full of danger, evil aliens and various perils of space exploration.

Pessimistic and dystopian view of the future of humanity in Sci-fi movies and TV series is not new. In fact, it's largely the most common form of sci-fi entertainment since the birth of TV and cinema.

 

[Longinus]

Yeah, one can just fine like grimdark shows about amoral arseholes, and still not wish Star Trek to become one. Trust me, I'm equally opposed including optimism in Warhammer 40K. Diluting the core identity of the franchise is unwise.

 

[Charles Phipps]

In defense of Discovery I think it's important to note Captain Georgiou and the Admiral both present a Federation which is peaceful, passive, and uninterested in doing EVIL. They fight but only when attacked and there's no cynical motivations behind their expansion.

"We come in peace" is sincere.

 

[Longinus]

In defense of Discovery I think it's important to note Captain Georgiou and the Admiral both present a Federation which is peaceful, passive, and uninterested in doing EVIL. They fight but only when attacked and there's no cynical motivations behind their expansion.

"We come in peace" is sincere.

Yeah, I liked that.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, one can just fine like grimdark shows about amoral arseholes, and still not wish Star Trek to become one. Trust me, I'm equally opposed including optimism in Warhammer 40K. Diluting the core identity of the franchise is unwise.

Oh, that explains why I can't stand that series.

 

[mattyhugh]

I don't think it's modern TV. Star Trek always has been relatively distinctive in the world of sci-fi TV and movie in presenting a more optimistic, scientifically progressive world for humanity.

Most Sci-fi, even in the 50s and 60s, always present us a more pessimistic view of science and the future. Post-apocalyptic world, alien or tyrant taking over earth, nuclear/environmental holocaust, science creating monsters, freedom abolished, war with human-made android, dystopian world, etc, etc. It is based on our fear of science and the future. It serve as a warning of things to avoid. Star Trek posit that in the world of space travel and progressing science, humanity will settle their petty political squabbles and more current problems related to our materialistic world would be solved (poverty, hunger, war, many current diseases, etc). Technology like replicators, space travel, holodeck, advanced medicine solving many ills of our current time. In the world of Star Trek, it's humanity vs the universe. The Star Trek future world is still full of danger, evil aliens and various perils of space exploration.

Pessimistic and dystopian view of the future of humanity in Sci-fi movies and TV series is not new. In fact, it's largely the most common form of sci-fi entertainment since the birth of TV and cinema.

TOS was ground breaking and different for SciFi. I wasn’t trying to argue that it wasn’t. But it’s equal parts 60s cop show and 60s western. It was influenced but other contemporary entertainment. I don’t think it’s possible to remove art from the context of time it’s created.

I don’t think DS9 post 9/11 would look how it looked good in the 90s. TNG and it’s humanist utopia was very much influenced by the late 80s zeitgeist of the nearing end of the Cold War. It even has a councilor on the bridge because self help texts were all the rage.

 

[Charles Phipps]

TOS was ground breaking and different for SciFi. I wasn’t trying to argue that it wasn’t. But it’s equal parts 60s cop show and 60s western. It was influenced but other contemporary entertainment. I don’t think it’s possible to remove art from the context of time it’s created.

I don’t think DS9 post 9/11 would look how it looked good in the 90s. TNG and it’s humanist utopia was very much influenced by the late 80s zeitgeist of the nearing end of the Cold War. It even has a councilor on the bridge because self help texts were all the rage.

Honestly, it's interesting how DS9 is the best critique of the War on Terror Star Trek could have possibly done and that's entirely because it predated it. Talk about curtailing rights on Earth, terrorism, Section 31 for "legal by the fact no one prosecutes the blatantly illegal", paranoia about being INFILTRATED, and more. Honestly, we just needed a refugee crisis and it's topical today.

 

[Nyotarules]

In defense of Discovery I think it's important to note Captain Georgiou and the Admiral both present a Federation which is peaceful, passive, and uninterested in doing EVIL. They fight but only when attacked and there's no cynical motivations behind their expansion.

"We come in peace" is sincere.

The thing is the Klingons don't want them to come at all, they want them to stay in their own lane. To the Klingons they are like the stereotype Jehovah Witness who persist on knocking in your door to bring you the truth, even when you keep shouting at them to go away.

 

[Nyotarules]

If I was to go back in time, say 1817 and tell my female ancestors about the life I live in 2017 they would consider it a Utopia, borderline Paradise. If I took a time machine and visited Star Trek Earth in 2217 or 2267 they would be giving me looks of pity for the barbaric life I am living.
Utopia is a matter of perspective.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Honestly, it's interesting how DS9 is the best critique of the War on Terror Star Trek could have possibly done and that's entirely because it predated it. Talk about curtailing rights on Earth, terrorism, Section 31 for "legal by the fact no one prosecutes the blatantly illegal", paranoia about being INFILTRATED, and more. Honestly, we just needed a refugee crisis and it's topical today.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Sanctuary_(episode)

 

[Charles Phipps]

The thing is the Klingons don't want them to come at all, they want them to stay in their own lane. To the Klingons they are like the stereotype Jehovah Witness who persist on knocking in your door to bring you the truth, even when you keep shouting at them to go away.

I created the sympathize with the Klingons thread for a reason but I do think they're objectively wrong or T'kuvma is at least. He wants to unite the Great Houses against the Federation and restore Klingon honor but the dude lied to lure the Admiral's flagship in and behaved in a cowardly dishonorable fashion.