Lorca: Fans Will Have To Adjust

[GhostLoveScore]

I don't understand what the problem is here. Some people welcome the change of style, some people don't. And here some people say that we should all like new style. Why? What if somebody said to you, "hey, I see that you like blondes. You are wrong. You should like redheads".
This whole discussion is pointless. Lorca said what he said, which in my opinion is arrogant. "Adapt or go away" was basically what he said. I have a problem with that kind of communication.

 

[Vger23]

They're a minority and should be treated as such. The worst I normally see, outside of bulletin boards, is "I don't want to pay for CBS All Access!" That's more of a CBSAA issue than a DSC one. Then I'll see "Why can't we have it Post-Voyager?!" I equate that with, that's just what they'd rather see.

For actively hoping the series fails, I agree with you. Anyone who's like that shouldn't be catered to at all. If DSC fails, I have a hard time imagining Star Trek coming back to TV unless it's on something like SyFy.

True. I agree...but...

1. Of course nobody WANTS to pay for CBSAA. I mean, given the choice between watching it on cable CBS and paying for a streaming service...of course I'd take the free option. But, since that option is not available, I need to sit down like a grown man and weigh the situation. Does my love for Star Trek justify a $7.99 / month expense? For me, as a lifelong fan, that's as big a no-brainer as I've ever had in my life. I'm not going to abstain (and verbally complain) just because I need to prove a point.

2. The era that the show is placed in really is a secondary (at best) concern. It shouldn't matter if the subject matter, plots, characters, etc are fun, smart and interesting. It's a pretty thin reason for objecting to a show you're supposed to be a fan of.

 

[BillJ]

"Adapt or go away" was basically what he said.

That is pretty much life in a nutshell.

 

[stueyross]

Wow, that was a really assholish thing to say. He was one of the only things I was hopeful about in the show, too. Well, screw him. I have absolutely no respect left for him, and I always thought he was a very solid actor before this and I enjoyed him in most things I saw him. I guess the show is down to the (exterior) Starfleet ship designs and possibly the lead when it comes to things I don't hate about Discovery.

Can you show me on the dolly where the internet hurt you?

 

[Jedi_Master]

I don't understand what the problem is here. Some people welcome the change of style, some people don't. And here some people say that we should all like new style. Why? What if somebody said to you, "hey, I see that you like blondes. You are wrong. You should like redheads".
This whole discussion is pointless. Lorca said what he said, which in my opinion is arrogant. "Adapt or go away" was basically what he said. I have a problem with that kind of communication.

Ok. So what camp do you fall into? The "adapt"? Or the "go away"?

 

[Roald]

In any case you're using circular logic to support the Discovery uniforms: The Discovery Uniforms look like that, so clearly the Discovery Uniforms must look like that.

Your logic is equally circular: uniforms from The Cage looked the same way they did in WNHGB, so in the time between, they must have looked like that.

Who says? Totally different, but look at National Football teams; occasionally, they go full retro and play a few years in shirts closely resembling shirts from 100 years ago. If you look at a photo from 100 year ago and then from 'the retro era', by your logic all decades in between they MUST have played in that same shirt.

Let's just face it: Gene updated the uniforms when he could, most notably in 1979. Not only that, he retconned just about everything, from Klingons to Vulcan moons (!). He wanted something that looked epic, that looked like a movie, that DIDN'T look like a tiny budget TV show from the '60's... even if it meant breaking every aesthetic rule he had previously made. Not everyone may have liked it, but he COULD so he did, end of story.

And the DSC producers want something that looks epic, grand, something that has movie-quality. You really want them to use the uniforms from The Cage?! They're yellow sweaters with an emblem sewn on ffs! Not even Gene wanted those anymore, why on Earth would producers from 2017 want them?! Why would a costume designer simply want to carbon copy what was done before?! With all due respect, but you understand nothing of the creative process... Creative people want to CREATE, not just simply paint by numbers... You could say 'Well they should have made a series beyond NEM then', and partly you're correct. In all honesty, I would have loved that more, I think we all would. That said, I'm really looking foreward to what we're getting this September, and you can bet I will be watching!

 

[uniderth]

What I'm getting at is you think you know a film or series by putting some pieces of information together, but what you do is selectively isolate certain elements and you miss out on the maker's intention, you miss out on 'the big picture'. In any case, it is literally your loss...

Which it's fine. I'm willing to accept that loss. But what you said was this:

I honestly think you just disqualify yourself as a valuable debater. FFS, at least actually watch a thing before spewing shit about it...

Basically that I can't have an informed opinion about JJTrek without first having watched the films. And while that may be true in regard to the experience of watching this films, it is not true in regard to an analysis of the content of the film, which content can be acquired without watching.

It is, it was added so that people with your level of canon... rigidity, can watch and enjoy without getting upset over the changes, while giving the 'why can't they just update TOS' crowd exactly that - TOS for the modern era.

This is the setup for the movie, not the movie itself, nor the ones that follow. Give them a try on their own merits at least, because they are Star Trek movies. They may not be quite what you wanted, and they're certainly not perfect, but they have a spirit and a life to them which has been missing from Trek for years.

That may be so. But I'm not interested in watching an "alternative" version of Kirk and crew. It just doesn't interest me.

I'll tell you now - as someone who posted that TAS can't be canon because the universe didn't really turn into a cartoon, you're never going to see Discovery as part of the same canon as The Cage. Not the slightest chance. But what I hope is that you'll give the show a chance on its own merits. If you must think of it as a reboot a la @BillJ then do that - it's probably going to be in all but name - but it deserves a chance to be assessed outside of the silly details of uniforms and ship insignias.

And that's ok. I'm fine with JJTrek or Discovery being great shows by themselves. But I'm just not interested in watching Discovery if it is outside the same canon as "The Cage." I just have zero interest in it. So in that case, for me, it might as well not even be Star Trek, which is how I would probably treat it.

 

[Vger23]

I don't understand what the problem is here. Some people welcome the change of style, some people don't. And here some people say that we should all like new style. Why? What if somebody said to you, "hey, I see that you like blondes. You are wrong. You should like redheads".
This whole discussion is pointless. Lorca said what he said, which in my opinion is arrogant. "Adapt or go away" was basically what he said. I have a problem with that kind of communication.

I think this is incorrect read of the situation.

Nobody is saying you should like the new style if you don't. Respectfuly, to Isaacs (not Lorca's) point...it's more that we don't give a $hit. People might say that we feel the reasons for not liking things are irrational or at this phase completely unjustified...but nobody is saying YOU MUST LIKE REDHEADS!!!!" Because, quite frankly, the room is currently full of redheads regardless of what you like. So either bang a redhead or get off of it.

It's not arrogant to say "adapt or go away." It's reality. It's the hard truth. It's a truth that may suck if you're on the losing end...but that's life. I know that being dealt the truth in a direct manner is frowned upon in many camps in this world...but that's what the man did. He dealt the fans a hard dose of truth.

I for one think it is fantastic. And I'd respect that no matter what "side" I was on. It's a helluva lot better than being pandered to, strung along, and patted on the head. F-ck that! Tell it like it is. He wasn't disrespectful, he was truthful.

But, of course, anything that isn't aligned with what we want to hear these days is automatically offensive and disrespectful....... If you "have a problem with that kind of communication" then you have a problem with being told the truth in a straightforward and unambiguous way.

 

[Kemaiku]

That is pretty much life in a nutshell.

Life throws shit at you a lot more than a TV show. If you literally cannot adapt to 51 years of change in a small form of media, I despair at your basic ability to adapt to the smallest of changes in life.

The general "You" as in anyone reading this, in case anyone asks. I mean Sarek even remarks about this in the trailer for the series for goodness sake.

The series will tackle the concept of change in the first season, as a theme, how are people not catching on to that.

 

[Krandor]

I agree with this to a large extent.

However...what I think I REALLY have a problem with is not just the stuff you mention:

It's the fact that the hate-spew is actually designed to derail the project by spreading bad word of mouth. So, it's not just people voicing their opinions (because that's ok, as you mention!) and it's not just people having concerns. It's mainly people who ACTIVELY want the show to fail and are trying to make that happen.

That's where I draw the line for my tolerance. Because, it's easy for you as a hater to just not watch...but why do you need to destroy the show for millions of others who might actually really love it?

Yup...that's where my blood pressure goes through the roof.

That is true and I've never seen anything quite like it. I used to get frustrated with people who would say "I hate show X so I hope it gets cancelled" why? just don't watch it. It doesn't hurt my any that bacehellor is on even though I have no interest in watching it. If you like it go ahead. I'll pass.

I think the hoping the show to fail is somehow thining if they can get discovery to fail or cbs all access to fail that that will suddenly cause CBS to now create "real" trek instead. Isn't going to happen. It discovery fails it will be a decade or two before we get another star trek tv series and isn't going to change CBS's mind and isn't going to get guideline changed or any of it.

 

[The Doctor]

That may be so. But I'm not interested in watching an "alternative" version of Kirk and crew. It just doesn't interest me.

Alternative to what, exactly?

Star Trek is a patchwork of different writers, directors, showrunners and actors. It's not some monolithic epic, penned by a single auteur with a vision. Hell, even the original series with it's scant 79 episodes could hardly be bothered to be consistent from one episode or season to the next. Gene Roddenberry to Gene Coon to Fred Frieburger, all had their own 'takes' on Trek and the show changed accordingly. The best filmic Trek movies were helmed by Meyer, who couldn't have given two shits about what Trek was before he came along. He wanted Horatio Hornblower in space and, by God, that's what he made.

It was only when TNG came on to the airwaves that the ossification of Trek really began, when it all started to feel samey-samey. We haven't had an original, modern take on weekly Trek since 1991, or so. Even DS9 with it's vaunted serialization was a pale shadow of contemporary serialized drama on television, mired in the look and feel established by TNG in the late 80s.

I think it's time to see something new. That you don't is fine, but try not to be dogmatic about it. There are no true Scotsmen.

 

[Roald]

I don't understand what the problem is here. Some people welcome the change of style, some people don't. And here some people say that we should all like new style. Why? What if somebody said to you, "hey, I see that you like blondes. You are wrong. You should like redheads".
This whole discussion is pointless. Lorca said what he said, which in my opinion is arrogant. "Adapt or go away" was basically what he said. I have a problem with that kind of communication.

Actually a better example would be: 'I see you like that woman. You shouldn't. She wears sneakers.' I mean come on, what does wearing sneakers tell about her character? She could be an amazingly kind, funny woman that you could spend your life with and have a happy family with..! It would be crazy to put her down because of sneakers right?
I'm not saying 'You SHOULD like DSC'. I'm saying: get to KNOW it first (by actually watching it) before judging based on uniform designs... 'cause that's equally crazy in my book.

 

[Vger23]

That is true and I've never seen anything quite like it. I used to get frustrated with people who would say "I hate show X so I hope it gets cancelled" why? just don't watch it. It doesn't hurt my any that bacehellor is on even though I have no interest in watching it. If you like it go ahead. I'll pass.

I think the hoping the show to fail is somehow thining if they can get discovery to fail or cbs all access to fail that that will suddenly cause CBS to now create "real" trek instead. Isn't going to happen. It discovery fails it will be a decade or two before we get another star trek tv series and isn't going to change CBS's mind and isn't going to get guideline changed or any of it.

Like I've said before:

"Never underestimate the need for people to be proven right to themselves."

The failure of DSC, no matter how catastrophic to the franchise and no matter how disappointing to the fans who DO love the show, would vindicate those opinions...and that's all that matters.

 

[uniderth]

Your logic is equally circular: uniforms from The Cage looked the same way they did in WNHGB, so in the time between, they must have looked like that

It's not circular becasue it uses multiple data point to extrapolate a likely scenario. I have two different episodes each illustrating what uniforms looked like early and late in the given era. Whereas the evidence for the Discovery uniforms is based solely on their own existence. Well, I guess we better throw out everything becasue some designer wanted 'MUH DELTUZ.

Who says? Totally different, but look at National Football teams; occasionally, they go full retro and play a few years in shirts closely resembling shirts from 100 years ago. If you look at a photo from 100 year ago and then from 'the retro era', by your logic all decades in between they MUST have played in that same shirt

Yeah.. becasue football is relevant to Starfleet...

You really want them to use the uniforms from The Cage?! They're yellow sweaters with an emblem sewn on ffs!

Just more cardboard shaming.

What's cardboard shaming?

It when people bash Star Trek for being cheap and having cardboard sets. It is an attempt to shame by oversimplying and ridiculing the subject. Star Trek used plywood sets, not cardboard.

In reference to this discussion the uniforms were not yellow sweaters. First there were three colors and second they were made specifically for the show out of a material that would probably not make a very good sweater.

That said, I'm really looking foreward to what we're getting this September, and you can bet I will be watching!

I hope you enjoy it then. Pending further data, I'm planning on watching a bit. However, I'm doubtful that I will be able to enjoy it. I'm willing to give it a chance, but if it falls outside of my range of interest than I probably wont watch much of it.

 

[Kor]

Actually a better example would be: 'I see you like that woman. You shouldn't. She wears sneakers.' I mean come on, what does wearing sneakers tell about her character? She could be an amazingly kind, funny woman that you could spend your life with and have a happy family with..! It would be crazy to put her down because of sneakers right?
I'm not saying 'You SHOULD like DSC'. I'm saying: get to KNOW it first (by actually watching it) before judging based on uniform designs... 'cause that's equally crazy in my book.

What kind of sneakers?

Kor

 

[Roald]

What kind of sneakers?

Kor

Adidas

 

[dahj]

It's not circular becasue it uses multiple data point to extrapolate a likely scenario

Why not just add this new data point to your scenario and extrapolate again?

 

[Vger23]

Why not just add this new data point to your scenario and extrapolate again?

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!


TOO




MUCH





LOGIC!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kemaiku]

Spock's ability to contemplate other universes being important over his own saved the world from V'ger.

Before he died and got all wise and shit.

Then he did it again.

 

[BillJ]

It's not circular becasue it uses multiple data point to extrapolate a likely scenario. I have two different episodes each illustrating what uniforms looked like early and late in the given era. Whereas the evidence for the Discovery uniforms is based solely on their own existence. Well, I guess we better throw out everything becasue some designer wanted 'MUH DELTUZ.

Just treat is as a reboot. I want it to be entertaining and respectful of the ideals that came before. Beyond that? What does it really matter?