Agency of Female Characters

[Tenacity]

But she specifically says this is the place of the Vulcan woman

The power behind the throne? Code of Honor seemed to show the men in positions of power, only at the end do we find out that the women hold authority over the men.

When Sarek perceives Amada may have embarrassed Spock, he said "not even a mother may do this." This was step beyond whatever power Amada did possess in Vulcan society.

Whether there would be kalifee rested in the hands of T'Pring, not Spock. Males couldn't challange the selection of the bride. But the bride could with the groom.

 

[Pauln6]

That was moronic....but doesn't mean she chooses men unwisely.

I assumed she was meant to have been shot but they couldn't show bleeding bullet holes on a family show.

You're right though, I was being facetious about her choice of men because she seems very friendly with a different guy very soon after the death of her fiancé. More to the point, she isn't shown doing anything useful in either of her episodes.

 

[johnnybear]

Thing was the Angela Martine episodes weren't actually filmed together and originally the character was called Mary Teller I believe? Which is reinforced by The Shat's mistaken use of that name in the episode!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

...So perhaps it was Lars screaming?

Lars screaming? Well I suppose it could have been Lars, especially when he became excited by the beautiful Lieutenant, yes!
JB

 

[Tenacity]

she seems very friendly with a different guy very soon after the death of her fiancé

Two different roles, played by the same actress?

 

[Timewalker]

I assumed she was meant to have been shot but they couldn't show bleeding bullet holes on a family show.

She wasn't shot. She just ran into a tree and knocked herself out.

Remember, nobody was assumed to be dead in that episode until McCoy got skewered by the knight.

Two different roles, played by the same actress?

Both coincidentally named "Angela"?

I've seen some fan speculation that she just decided to change her name, for some reason.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Remember, nobody was assumed to be dead in that episode until McCoy got skewered by the knight.

People don't cry over other peoples' bodies just because they get knocked out.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x15hd/shoreleavehd463.jpg

 

[FormerLurker]

He's not crying. He's checking her because she got knocked out and is unresponsive. If you watch, you can see her run headlong into the tree. In fact, it's partly his fault, as he dragged her into it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'd really love to read what the script says is supposed to happen.

 

[Kor]

The telepathic element is intriguing, although not every Vulcan has telepathic abilities according to Enterprise, ...

The Vulcan story arc in season four debunked that as propoganda from the corrupt Vulcan High Command. "Surak tells us, it [the mind meld] is the heritage of every Vulcan."

I can't believe I remembered that off the top of my head.

Kor

 

[johnnybear]

Two different roles, played by the same actress?

Originally the character was called Mary Teller in Shore Leave and for some reason, maybe because Barbara Baldavin was married to a casting agent, they changed it to her role of Angela Martine!
JB

 

[Forbin]

She ran into the tree because she was shot in the back by a stock footage Hellcat pretending to be a Zero.
Clearly she was supposed to have been shot - you're the only person I've encountered in 50 years who thought she wasn't! It was a dramatic scene, not slapstick comedy.

 

[Timewalker]

She ran into the tree because she was shot in the back by a stock footage Hellcat pretending to be a Zero.
Clearly she was supposed to have been shot - you're the only person I've encountered in 50 years who thought she wasn't! It was a dramatic scene, not slapstick comedy.

Not sure who you're addressing, but there are clearly at least two of us who don't think she was shot.

If she had been, don't you think Rodrigues would have reported it to the Captain and there would have been a great big fuss about people dying before McCoy got run through? Nobody told Kirk that Angela got shot. Shot at, yeah. But shot dead?

Nope.

 

[Nyotarules]

If what happened on ENT is true and T'Pring could have gotten out of it beforehand giving Spock time to find someone else then T'Pring deserves all the hate we give her.

Perhaps T'Pring wanted out of the marriage and could not get an annulment. Koss parents or Koss himself, accepted T'Pol's request to end her engagement before they changed their mind again and she had to go through with it. However this was all before the Vulcan reformation.

I've never read anything, anywhere, in which T'Pring comes out of this with her honor and reputation untarnished, or that she ever comes to regret her decision because it was unethical.

If you retcon that Vulcan woman get Ponn Farr as well (Its not part of my personal fanon) then Spock put both their lifes at risk running away to join the space navy. I read a good fanfic from T'Pring's point of view, how it was Spock that screwed things up and left her no choice. He used her as a placeholder and she resented it.

 

[Timewalker]

Perhaps T'Pring wanted out of the marriage and could not get an annulment. Koss parents or Koss himself, accepted T'Pol's request to end her engagement before they changed their mind again and she had to go through with it. However this was all before the Vulcan reformation.

WHAT?!

Okay, I knew that Enterprise retconned a hell of a lot, but are you saying that Surak's reforms didn't happen until after the events of Enterprise? That's the only "Vulcan Reformation" I'm aware of, and according to TOS, it happened thousands of years before the 23rd (human) century.

If you retcon that Vulcan woman get Ponn Farr as well (Its not part of my personal fanon) then Spock put both their lifes at risk running away to join the space navy. I read a good fanfic from T'Pring's point of view, how it was Spock that screwed things up and left her no choice. He used her as a placeholder and she resented it.

Did T'Pring appear in any way to be in some sort of blood fever? Was she anything but coldly calculating and rational?

No. She would have been aware of Spock's state through the telepathic bond, but chose to try to get out of the marriage, rather than fulfill her part of the Bonding.

I didn't see the Enterprise episode dealing with T'Pol, but if that's how they did it - that she also became afflicted with the plak tow and this was "pre-Reformation"... then I rest my case in saying that Enterprise was more a prequel to the TNG/DS9/Voyager series than it ever was to the TOS series (and don't anyone start hollering about stardates and chronology; I'm talking about some aspects of Enterprise being presented as though TOS never existed, not that it's post-TOS/pre-TNG).

 

[Nyotarules]

Okay, I knew that Enterprise retconned a hell of a lot, but are you saying that Surak's reforms didn't happen until after the events of Enterprise? That's the only "Vulcan Reformation" I'm aware of, and according to TOS, it happened thousands of years before the 23rd (human) century.

Just like Christianity, Surak's teachings were corrupted over the millennia and another reformation brought T'Pau to power and his original teachings were discovered and released to the planet. Its a two parter in ENT- The Forge and The Kishira episodes.

Did T'Pring appear in any way to be in some sort of blood fever? Was she anything but coldly calculating and rational?

Like I wrote, if you retcon that Vulcan females get Ponn Farr then Spock when he left Vulcan for decades, would not be aware that T'Pring would not get all hot and bothered the same time as himself when his time came. He took a risk and almost lost. One can argue he risked her life and she risked his. He is not a saint in all this.

I'm talking about some aspects of Enterprise being presented as though TOS never existed

TWOK assumes TMP never existed, so ENT is in good company.

 

[Timewalker]

Just like Christianity, Surak's teachings were corrupted over the millennia and another reformation brought T'Pau to power and his original teachings were discovered and released to the planet. Its a two parter in ENT- The Forge and The Kishira episodes.

Well, that's convenient. /sarcasm

Like I wrote, if you retcon that Vulcan females get Ponn Farr then Spock when he left Vulcan for decades, would not be aware that T'Pring would not get all hot and bothered the same time as himself when his time came. He took a risk and almost lost. One can argue he risked her life and she risked his. He is not a saint in all this.

It's one thing to retcon history, but quite another to retcon biology. T'Pring was in no way suffering from plak tow, and just because Vulcans don't discuss pon farr in polite company, that doesn't mean they wouldn't learn about it well in advance. I am not prepared to accept that Vulcan marriage is like human marriages are sometimes portrayed on old TV shows and in novels, where the bride only learns about sex the night before the wedding when her mother gives her the "lie back and think of the children you'll have" speech.

TWOK assumes TMP never existed, so ENT is in good company.

In what way does TWOK assume that TMP never existed?

 

[Kor]

TWOK was a soft reboot that ignored TMP instead of building on it..

Kor

 

[Nyotarules]

It's one thing to retcon history, but quite another to retcon biology.

The biology, like the history is fiction, the creators can retcon them however they like. Ponn Farr when discussed on the show its never implied or stated its the first time the parties have sex with each other or anyone else.

 

[Timewalker]

The biology, like the history is fiction, the creators can retcon them however they like. Ponn Farr when discussed on the show its never implied or stated its the first time the parties have sex with each other or anyone else.

Except this is Spock's first experience with pon farr, since he expressly states that he had hoped to be spared from having to go through it.

Enterprise might as well have retconned Vulcans to have two hearts or cobalt-based blood, if they were going to retcon other generally-accepted facts about Vulcans that had been established decades previously in the show to which it was supposedly a prequel.

TWOK was a soft reboot that ignored TMP instead of building on it.

Ignored it how?

The ship's design and uniforms are purely a cosmetic thing. I notice the Klingons' new look and biology were kept. Spock's newfound acceptance of emotion and friendship (expressed logically, of course) was kept. Kirk doesn't get any younger, and he's still an admiral. Decker and Ilia don't suddenly pop up again. Chapel doesn't get demoted back to a nurse.

Other than the look of the ship and the uniforms, what got ignored that was actually significant?