Spoilers Game of Thrones - Season 7

[Grendelsbayne]

I was talking to a friend who said that because of Arya's actions at the Twins, Arya is beyond redemption and will most certainly going to die because of it. My friend said no else has killed 50 people at once. I pointed out that Cersei's toll when blowing up the Sept of Baelor was much higher, and also Daenerys had 163 of the Masters crucified.

I also pointed out that Arya has never killed an innocent person only people who have murdered/hurt others and that Arya has now chosen to return to Winterfell rather than to continue seeking revenge.

So folks, do you think Arya has gone too far down a dark path or not.

I don't think Arya is beyond redemption, but I find the entire idea that her morality has anything whatsoever to do with her chances of dying laughable. This isn't a moralistic tale. People don't 'get what's coming to them' in Game of Thrones. Pretty much the whole point is that terrible sh** happens to everyone, everywhere, no matter what.

 

[Reverend]

I don't think Arya is beyond redemption, but I find the entire idea that her morality has anything whatsoever to do with her chances of dying laughable. This isn't a moralistic tale. People don't 'get what's coming to them' in Game of Thrones. Pretty much the whole point is that terrible sh** happens to everyone, everywhere, no matter what.

I'd go one step further and say Arya has nothing to redeem herself for. The path of vengeance is a dangerous one and often self-destructive, but she hasn't lost her way yet. By choosing to try and re-unite with her family over going back to King's Landing has proven that much at least. For now, anyway.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I'd go one step further and say Arya has nothing to redeem herself for. The path of vengeance is a dangerous one and often self-destructive, but she hasn't lost her way yet. By choosing to try and re-unite with her family over going back to King's Landing has proven that much at least. For now, anyway.

Nothing is perhaps a big claim. I still don't entirely understand the foundation/purpose of the House of Black and White, but it's hard to argue against the fact that she begged and pleaded with them to teach her, flouted their rules, killed one of them who was trying to enforce the rules Arya agreed to, and then ran off with their superpower that no-one outside their group is supposed to have. When it comes down to it, she used them and tossed them away (and for that, I expect she will eventually have to face Jacquen again, possibly fatally).

 

[Reverend]

Nothing is perhaps a big claim. I still don't entirely understand the foundation/purpose of the House of Black and White, but it's hard to argue against the fact that she begged and pleaded with them to teach her, flouted their rules, killed one of them who was trying to enforce the rules Arya agreed to, and then ran off with their superpower that no-one outside their group is supposed to have. When it comes down to it, she used them and tossed them away (and for that, I expect she will eventually have to face Jacquen again, possibly fatally).

Quite possibly.

Nevertheless, it's hard to argue that it was wrong of her to murder a bunch of murderers who wanted her to be one of their fellow murderers and murder people. Doesn't exactly make it right either. Which is indeed one of the recurring themes of GoT.
There's no such thing as a clean victory in this world. Honour and rules are only there to protect the dishonourable and the the rule breakers.

I don't see any of this as being for something for which she should feel especially guilty for, let alone seek redemption. Indeed, if their god of death is real, I'd be willing to bet it would say anyone capable of killing those people single handed has earned those lives and would thank her for the tribute. She earned what she took.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I think if the writers wanted to show that she was beyond redemption, she would have either killed the Lannister soldiers who befriended her (many would forgive her, as Ed Sheeran was in their number!) or would have had her go to King's Landing to kill Cersei even after hearing that her family was back in Winterfell. That she returned to WF suggests to me that she retains her humanity.

Of course, the "it's not you" line to Nymeria could mean that she also realises that a happy family life isn't for her either.

I got the impression that Nymeria's reaction was due to Arya's training as a Faceless Man being complete. Arya smells like Arya, but she doesn't feel like Arya. Nymeria opted on the safe side and just walked away. Since Arya never had the wargging connection to her like Bran did to Summer (or Jon to Ghost), it was impossible for her to convince Nymeria that she was actually Arya. Really cool moment, actually. Arya truly is "no one".

Nothing is perhaps a big claim. I still don't entirely understand the foundation/purpose of the House of Black and White, but it's hard to argue against the fact that she begged and pleaded with them to teach her, flouted their rules, killed one of them who was trying to enforce the rules Arya agreed to, and then ran off with their superpower that no-one outside their group is supposed to have. When it comes down to it, she used them and tossed them away (and for that, I expect she will eventually have to face Jacquen again, possibly fatally).

I don't know - I got the impression that, once the "waif" was killed at Arya's hand, that he was truly impressed. IIRC, there was even a slight smile on his face when she walked away, like that was the test and what he wanted for her all along and she passed.

Honestly, it's difficult to tell how that one's going to play out. There's still a season and a half left and a lot can happen in that time - especially now that everything is getting compressed and moving rapidly. If Arya gets clipped, it's not likely to happen until next season, I'm thinking. She still has some names on her list!

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I got the impression that Nymeria's reaction was due to Arya's training as a Faceless Man being complete. Arya smells like Arya, but she doesn't feel like Arya. Nymeria opted on the safe side and just walked away. Since Arya never had the wargging connection to her like Bran did to Summer (or Jon to Ghost), it was impossible for her to convince Nymeria that she was actually Arya. Really cool moment, actually. Arya truly is "no one".

Interesting point there, which leaves me wondering how the books will handle her considering she does have a mental link with Nymeria (through dreaming) in the books. Further, her training is going differently considering her relationship with the Waif is vastly different (it isn't adversarial) and Jaqen isn't even there (maybe).

 

[dahj]

I got the impression that Nymeria's reaction was due to Arya's training as a Faceless Man being complete. Arya smells like Arya, but she doesn't feel like Arya.

I read that differently, Nymeria knows who Arya is, it wasn't about recognition, it was about home.
Nymeria just doesn't see Winterfell (or Arya) as her home anymore, her wolfpack is her home now and it seems to me that Arya is going to wrestle with the same thing. Is Winterfell still her home, after all she's been through, can she go back?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Nymeria loves Arya but she is now the alpha of a pack. She doesn't have a master, she is a master.

I'm not sure morals apply to the world of GoT. Or not real world morals, more like mob movie morals. Only murder beyond necessity/self interest is irredeemable. Arya killed all the people who participated in the murder of her family and then all those who may seek revenge on her. By in world morals she has crossed no line.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I got the impression that the House of Black and White must be an agency of the Iron Bank that it uses to protect its interests. If the House were independent, I would have thought that it could sometimes be antagonistic, which would have led to its destruction or takeover by the power brokers of Braavos. However, I haven't read the books so I don't know the full background. I seem to recall reading that the House was founded by former slaves, who would be more likely to align themselves with Danaerys' cause.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Quite possibly.

Nevertheless, it's hard to argue that it was wrong of her to murder a bunch of murderers who wanted her to be one of their fellow murderers and murder people. Doesn't exactly make it right either. Which is indeed one of the recurring themes of GoT.
There's no such thing as a clean victory in this world. Honour and rules are only there to protect the dishonourable and the the rule breakers.

I don't see any of this as being for something for which she should feel especially guilty for, let alone seek redemption. Indeed, if their god of death is real, I'd be willing to bet it would say anyone capable of killing those people single handed has earned those lives and would thank her for the tribute. She earned what she took.

I like the tribute angle. Maybe that will even be the way the show goes - that when she meets up with Jacquen again it will be less of a revenge situation and more of a 'you never really left us' thing. Could be very interesting.

I will point out, though, that playing by the in story rules of morality, the defense that you only cheated and murdered cheaters and murderers is a bit bizarre, since everyone finds 'acceptable' reasons to cheat and murder. It's hard to see (at least for now, based on what information the show has provided) how the Waif and Jacquen are really all that different from Arya herself.

 

[bbjeg]

With the way this show runs, the majority of the moral lot die off quick with the justice bunch making it a few seasons before crushing your hopes. I feel like Sansa is near her end and Cerci will have something to do with it. It would turn John's focus and Sansa warned him to not ignore her.

Nymeria loves Arya but she is now the alpha of a pack. She doesn't have a master, she is a master.

I'm not sure morals apply to the world of GoT. Or not real world morals, more like mob movie morals. Only murder beyond necessity/self interest is irredeemable. Arya killed all the people who participated in the murder of her family and then all those who may seek revenge on her. By in world morals she has crossed no line.

Kinda. Something always bugged me about Rorge's death. As a television viewer who hasn't read the books, he was a guy who was having a bad day and said something he shouldn't have to a kid (I pictured he was drunk), he then showed her no love when she conveniently swiched genders for her benefit (now working for boss Lannister), then, while collecting a bounty for the child murdering Hound, he gets stabbed for something he said.

With that logic, Varys, with his disdain for magic, should be able to kill Sam for declaring that he wanted to be a wizard.

I was talking to a friend who said that because of Arya's actions at the Twins, Arya is beyond redemption and will most certainly going to die because of it. My friend said no else has killed 50 people at once. I pointed out that Cersei's toll when blowing up the Sept of Baelor was much higher, and also Daenerys had 163 of the Masters crucified.

I also pointed out that Arya has never killed an innocent person only people who have murdered/hurt others and that Arya has now chosen to return to Winterfell rather than to continue seeking revenge.

So folks, do you think Arya has gone too far down a dark path or not.

With everything I said above, I think Arya will outlive everyone, and hate it.

 

[Reverend]

I will point out, though, that playing by the in story rules of morality, the defense that you only cheated and murdered cheaters and murderers is a bit bizarre, since everyone finds 'acceptable' reasons to cheat and murder. It's hard to see (at least for now, based on what information the show has provided) how the Waif and Jacquen are really all that different from Arya herself.

That's pretty much my whole point. It was neither right nor wrong, it just was.
Arya didn't do what she did because it was just and right and honourable. Anyone who still think these things mean much to her haven't been paying attention to her arc since season 1. She did them because she is Arya Stark. It's who she is, and her identity is exactly what they wanted her to give up and the only thing that really matters to her anymore: her sense of self.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

That's pretty much my whole point. It was neither right nor wrong, it just was.
Arya didn't do what she did because it was just and right and honourable. Anyone who still think these things mean much to her haven't been paying attention to her arc since season 1. She did them because she is Arya Stark. It's who she is, and her identity is exactly what they wanted her to give up and the only thing that really matters to her anymore: her sense of self.

I agree with that.

Although one other thing occurred to me while thinking this over, which I find rather amusing: in a way, by embracing her identity as *Arya Stark* and rejecting her place as 'a girl', she actually may have given up her own identity entirely. After all, 'a Girl' may not have used the name Arya, but she could have had a life with a purpose and a place in the world that was actually hers, while *Arya Stark* has devoted her entire existence to the List - which is really just a way of allowing herself to still continue to be controlled by her enemies (even though they don't even know she's still alive). She did get two scenes in the recent episodes clearly designed to remind her that there is life outside of vengeance, so she still has a chance to turn that around, but I honestly am doubtful that her return to Winterfell will be very long-lived, so I'm not hopeful in that regard.

 

[StarMan]

My partner told me that Arya is off limits due to her being GRRM's wife's favourite character . Haven't looked into it, but I'm sure she'll see the The Hound again.

Euron: I think we all know Cersei ain't putting out for him. There's only one man for her and he's going to have some tough choices down the road if he encounters his other sibling.

Given the trailer for episode 4 and the season trailers, I think The Mother Of Dragons is just going to throw everything at Westeros and use the Dragons to her full advantage. She's been outplayed by the Lannisters and the ominous advantage we saw she had at the end of season 6 is gone. Jon is going to be her biggest ally right now whilst the *real* war festers in The North.

One possibility is she'll nearly prevail when the White Walkers play their endgame and ... everyone will have to heed the words of Ser Davos, quickly.

 

[Reverend]

I agree with that.

Although one other thing occurred to me while thinking this over, which I find rather amusing: in a way, by embracing her identity as *Arya Stark* and rejecting her place as 'a girl', she actually may have given up her own identity entirely. After all, 'a Girl' may not have used the name Arya, but she could have had a life with a purpose and a place in the world that was actually hers, while *Arya Stark* has devoted her entire existence to the List - which is really just a way of allowing herself to still continue to be controlled by her enemies (even though they don't even know she's still alive). She did get two scenes in the recent episodes clearly designed to remind her that there is life outside of vengeance, so she still has a chance to turn that around, but I honestly am doubtful that her return to Winterfell will be very long-lived, so I'm not hopeful in that regard.

I suppose it all depends on who Arya Stark thinks Arya Stark is, which is the crux of her current internal dilemma.
Right now I think after he brief encounters with Hot Pie and Nymeria has show that she's not a robotic assassin and that she hasn't lost her way...yet.

I have to say that this point in the story is making me increasingly nervous. From the very beginning my favourite characters were Daenerys, Tyrion, Jon and Arya. So the list of characters I don't mind dying is getting very short indeed.
I think Jon is safe at least until near the very end since they can't kill him twice for shock value alone and expect it to mean anything. Daenerys seems like she's a safe bet to make it to the finish line, or like Jon *very near* the finish line depending on how the finale shapes up. Tyrion and Arya seem to be the most at risk of those four this season, though I prefer not to speculate too much.
Nothing worse than being proven right about your favourite character being killed off.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I suppose it all depends on who Arya Stark thinks Arya Stark is, which is the crux of her current internal dilemma.
Right now I think after he brief encounters with Hot Pie and Nymeria has show that she's not a robotic assassin and that she hasn't lost her way...yet.

I have to say that this point in the story is making me increasingly nervous. From the very beginning my favourite characters were Daenerys, Tyrion, Jon and Arya. So the list of characters I don't mind dying is getting very short indeed.
I think Jon is safe at least until near the very end since they can't kill him twice for shock value alone and expect it to mean anything. Daenerys seems like she's a safe bet to make it to the finish line, or like Jon *very near* the finish line depending on how the finale shapes up. Tyrion and Arya seem to be the most at risk of those four this season, though I prefer not to speculate too much.
Nothing worse than being proven right about your favourite character being killed off.

That's pretty much me exactly, as well. With the added bonus that I started watching this show around the same time I started watching the Walking Dead and I also said the same thing about Glenn...

 

[Miss Chicken]

GRRM promised his wife that Arya will make it to the last book.

I have a feeling that Arya might never see Jon again. He will either die or will end up permanently on the other side of the Wall. I think that would be a bittersweet ending for Arya. Without Jon being there Winterfell will not be home for her. Bran and Sansa will not be enough for her to feel at home.

I read a while back that GRRM has said that Arya and Gendry might meet again in the books but we don't know about the show because show Gendry is a combination of two of Robert's bastards and he could follow either or neither of their paths.

 

[Vandervecken]

I got the impression that the House of Black and White must be an agency of the Iron Bank that it uses to protect its interests. If the House were independent, I would have thought that it could sometimes be antagonistic, which would have led to its destruction or takeover by the power brokers of Braavos. However, I haven't read the books so I don't know the full background. I seem to recall reading that the House was founded by former slaves, who would be more likely to align themselves with Danaerys' cause.

I think they're independent, and playing a role against the Army of the Dead.

 

[Venardhi]

The Faceless Men are most definitely not agents of the Iron Bank unless they are hired by them for a specific death. Considering their resources and the critical importance required to necessitate their hiring a Faceless Man, that cost would be very steep indeed.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The Faceless Men are most definitely not agents of the Iron Bank unless they are hired by them for a specific death. Considering their resources and the critical importance required to necessitate their hiring a Faceless Man, that cost would be very steep indeed.

It seems odd that such a powerful group, which could potentially undermine the investments of the Iron Bank, should be quartered in the same city without any apparent friction between the two.