That's a very good idea. This blind acceptance of the way things are is something that might be great for heroes to challenge. That said, the Speed Force did prove more wise than Barry--at least at the beginning of the season, so he CAN learn from them.
Spoilers The Flash - Season 3
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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That's a very good idea. This blind acceptance of the way things are is something that might be great for heroes to challenge. That said, the Speed Force did prove more wise than Barry--at least at the beginning of the season, so he CAN learn from them.
The speedforce didn't gut or reprogam Savitar.
Oh?
Earlier in the season... The speed force neutered Barry, which would have neutered Savitar, and saved the day, but Barry fought tooth and nail to get Savitar his super powers back.
Oh?
Earlier in the season... The speed force neutered Barry, which would have neutered Savitar, and saved the day, but Barry fought tooth and nail to get Savitar his super powers back.
For those who weren't paying attention: the problem was caused by the prison in the speedforce *that Barry created* being left empty and thus unstable. I don't think the speedforce is unreasonable in it's demand that Barry pick up after himself when he's done screwing with it's corner of reality. Like flashpoint, this is a problem he created.
basically "you broke it, you bought it"?
How did Barry create this prison? Was it in 2020 when he got the Speed Force Bazooka and finally stopped Savitar?
If so, then if Savitar is erased from existence, shouldn't that prison also be erased?
Exactly. Based on what we've seen, I get the impression that the Speed Force actually cares about Barry and is trying to mentor him. Perhaps that is why the Speed Force manifests itself to Barry as his mom.
If the Speed Force connects all speedsters, I suppose its consciousness could be some sort of collective mind, a composite of the consciousnesses of all speedsters throughout the multiverse, living and dead (since it exists outside time). Not to the extent of having their distinct individual personalities manifest separately, but more of an emergent entity of its own arising from the interaction of the individual minds, like the way a traffic jam is an emergent pattern arising out of the movements of individual cars, or a wave in the ocean emerges from the oscillations of individual water molecules.
Well it's not like every other time-travel story element in this show to date hasn't been explicitly paradoxical. Why stop now?
Essentially yes, though really speaking it's more like "you will have going to have broken it, now go sit in it and think about what you are going to have done did."
Well it's physical manifestation of a speeding (timing?) ticket is an undead Flash, so it's probably either that or a "the mind interprets it in a context it can grasp" kind of thing.
You sure? I thought they did but I could be wrong. Barry went to 2024, and I thought 2024 Barry said that Tracy stopped Savitar 4 years after Iris died.
Well, recall that the Black Flash is actually Hunter Zolomon/Zoom, who was transformed into that state at the end of season 2, sucked into the Speed Force to serve as a sort of uber-Time Wraith. So he's not a metaphor, but a physically real zombie speedster. Which sort of makes sense. If, as we saw with Thawne on Legends, a speedster can race through time fast enough to evade the Time Wraiths that correct paradoxes and erase time remnants, then it's useful for the Wraiths to counter that advantage by getting their own speedster.
Yeah, even trying to make sense of the narrative leaps/turns in this series (let alone television universe) has been a lost cause for a while now.
I'll co-sign this. I've enjoyed the show up 'til now, but the routine Speedster vs. Speedster battles sprinkled with wacky Gorilla City and King Shark episodes here and there is getting old. Can't we have wackiness full time?
Me, I was mostly enjoying the finale until the lame Philosopher's Stone-as-bomb ass pull, followed by a frankly uninvolving final fight, capped off with a dreary Speed Force cliffhanger and a useless Jay Garrick cameo. (Cisco doesn't even need his computers or Vibing abilities to build a device to bust him out of his prison? He just cook that shit up in a dark warehouse, under S-Barry and Frost's noses? WTF?!) Everything eventually came back around to Flashpoint, which started off as an underwhelming opener and never much improved. HR and Tom Felton were the best parts of the season, with happy, amnesiac Barry a close second. Certainly nothing in the finale was anywhere near as cool as Hunter Zolomon's "Metapocalypse", however brief that was back in S3. Anyhow, given that S4 will apparently have a non-speedster baddie, is it too much to hope that the resolution of Barry's Speed Force penance means we can largely puts all that Speed Crap to the side for a good while?
That was the device Savitar kidnapped Cisco to force him to work on. He was supposed to make it function as a "splicer" to disperse Savitar through time Clara Oswald-style, but instead, he modified it into a "Speed Force skeleton key" for Jay. So he had the equipment he needed, courtesy of Savitar. He just didn't do what he was told to do with it. (Which struck me at the time as a huge oversight on Savitar's part -- it seemed obvious to me that Cisco could just do something different than Savitar told him to do, and neither Savvy nor Killer Frost would be able to tell. And that's just what happened.)
^ Yeah, I followed the story, but that development was crap. Cisco Vibe-ing into the Speed Force is one thing, but having the know-how to modify a device to unlock its prison cell, without any access to his powers, notes, or computers, was stretching things too far.
It's not like we haven't seen Cisco do similar things before, though, like when Snart kidnapped him and forced him to build weapons for him and his sister. It's just the sort of thing fictional geniuses are able to do, whip up plot-relevant devices in the field with whatever resources are on hand.
Besides, the way I took it was that the thing the device was supposed to do and the thing Cisco modified it to do were just different applications of the same principle, so that it was a relatively simple hack. It was supposed to merge Savitar with every moment of time, but instead it merged Jay with the here and now. Also, it stands to reason that Cisco has been brainstorming ways to free Jay ever since they had to leave him in the Speed Force, so he would've already done a lot of the theoretical work and computations.
I may have missed it, but did Barry ever even consider suicide to stop Savitar?
Yes. In their confrontation at the start of "Cause and Effect," after Remnant Barry has revealed himself, the Flash vibrates his hand Thawne-stabby-style and said "What happens if I kill myself right now?" Savitar reminded him that Eddie Thawne killed himself but Eobard was still running around in defiance of paradox (clearly he didn't see the Legends finale), saying "The funny thing about time travel: The more you do it, the less the rules apply to you."
I saw the whole thing as growth. Barry did something selfish for his own happiness, creating Flashpoint. Now he's giving up his chance to be happy to save the world by going into the Speed Force willingly.
Anyone have a Pool on how fast (IE how many minutes) into the first episode of Season 4 that Barry will be released/return from the 'speedforce'? 
Put me down for 30-35 minutes in, not counting commercials.
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