Ranks of characters

[Little_kingsfan]

Don't know. Not sure it matters, really. In that scenario, they could have the same rank, but one could occupy a senior billet and therefore have supervisory capacity over the other.

You're right, it doesn't matter. I'm just one of those guys who likes to know what rank all the Starfleet officers hold. And unless you say otherwise, I'm going to believe they are both full Admirals.

Several Rear or Vice Admirals (including Pressman, Nechayev and Fujisaki (as Deputy Director) have been mentioned as part of Starfleet Intelligence), the only 4-star admiral seen as part of SI IFAIK was the Udine recreation of ADM Gareth Bullock suggesting that he is SI Director. If so, it's likely that the head of SI for Earth/Sol System is junior to him (The ONI Director is I believe typically a RADM).

In addition to ADM Bullock, I believe Uhura is a four-star admiral in Catalyst of Sorrows. Speaking of Uhura, I was under the impression that she retired in 2360 at the end of the novel, but then in the Vulcan's Soul trilogy, she was seen still on active duty in 2377. Is this simply a case of the Vulcan's Soul wanting to use all TOS characters or just two separate continuities?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

In addition to ADM Bullock, I believe Uhura is a four-star admiral in Catalyst of Sorrows. Speaking of Uhura, I was under the impression that she retired in 2360 at the end of the novel, but then in the Vulcan's Soul trilogy, she was seen still on active duty in 2377. Is this simply a case of the Vulcan's Soul wanting to use all TOS characters or just two separate continuities?

Could be either, or both. I'd probably favour Catalyst of Sorrows' version due to it being an ongoing part of TrekLit, however while TrekLit has got a lot better about inter-book consistency in the last ten years or so, but there's still no requirement that this is so, as the books are provisional canon at best and even then only within themselves so it's difficult to say.

 

[The Wormhole]

Unless it's specified which grade they are, just assume all Starfleet admirals in the novels are Vice Admirals. After all, 90% of the admirals seen in the show are Vice Admirals

In addition to ADM Bullock, I believe Uhura is a four-star admiral in Catalyst of Sorrows. Speaking of Uhura, I was under the impression that she retired in 2360 at the end of the novel, but then in the Vulcan's Soul trilogy, she was seen still on active duty in 2377. Is this simply a case of the Vulcan's Soul wanting to use all TOS characters or just two separate continuities?

IIRC, she was only contemplating retiring until she had an encounter with a young Luther Sloan, who she had a bad feeling about and then decided against retiring.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Unless it's specified which grade they are, just assume all Starfleet admirals in the novels are Vice Admirals. After all, 90% of the admirals seen in the show are Vice Admirals

Rough analysis of Memory Alpha identifies 32 Rear Admirals and Commodores (of which 20 are confirmed 1-stars), 36 Vice Admirals, 11 Admirals (4-stars) and 8 Admirals with either 5-star insignia or referred to as Chief of Staff or Starfleet Commander or Commander, Starfleet, there are also 33 Admirals mentioned only in dialogue or on props for which a grade cannot be conclusively determined but it could be assumed that most are VADM or lower.

Therefore, we could say that 43% of known rank Admirals are VADM or that 81% of them are VADM or lower, but it would inaccurate to say that 90% are VADM.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, it sure seem like every admiral we see in the 24th century anyway is a Vice Admiral.

 

[Nyotarules]

Depending on the size of Starfleet there is plenty of room at the top. (Assuming a fleet that defends trillions has millions of officers)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Superintendent Brand and the Bolian from Homefront/Paradise Lost were both Rear Admirals, as were Coburn & Sitak from Favor the Bold, Mark Jameson from Too Short a Season, Eric Pressman from The Pegasus, as were Savar & Quinn from Conspiracy, and Rollman from Past Prologue and Whispers.

However, I would agree that the najority of the onscreen admirals in the 24th Century were Vice Admirals.

 

[SolarisOne]

I really wish they had changed the ranking system for TNG to reflect the modern practice of promoting captains to some equivalent of Rear Admiral, Lower Half (O-7), instead of directly to the single, two-star, Rear Admiral (O-8), as was the practice when TOS was created. Skipping the one-star rank just seems overly antiquated, and even served to momentarily throw me out of the novel where Riker was forcibly promoted. The reason the U.S. Navy went to the modern system (after experimenting with an ill-advised rank called "Commodore Admiral") was so that there would be no confusion that (O-7) was, in fact, a flag rank and not just some super-senior version of Captain.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I really wish they had changed the ranking system for TNG to reflect the modern practice of promoting captains to some equivalent of Rear Admiral, Lower Half (O-7), instead of directly to the single, two-star, Rear Admiral (O-8), as was the practice when TOS was created. Skipping the one-star rank just seems overly antiquated, and even served to momentarily throw me out of the novel where Riker was forcibly promoted. The reason the U.S. Navy went to the modern system (after experimenting with an ill-advised rank called "Commodore Admiral") was so that there would be no confusion that (O-7) was, in fact, a flag rank and not just some super-senior version of Captain.

Actually, they did use Rear Admiral Lower Half in TNG s1 for Mark Jameson (Too Short a Season) and Gregory Quinn (Copming of Age, Conspiracy), and it's possible that several of the RADM mentioned in dialogue or props were LHs , but I agree that it would have been better if they showed both a bit more often (particularly on the occassions that we met several in one episode). I also wish they'd kept the two grades of Captain (Fleet Captain and [Starship] Captain as it doesn't make sense to me that Picard and Janeway should be the same rank (even if they have similar roles) given that Picard has been a Captain since 2333, when Janeway was 5 (at most, other sources suggest she wouldn't be born until as 2344, with intermediate options at 2332 and 2336).

 

[SolarisOne]

I also wish they'd kept the two grades of Captain (Fleet Captain and [Starship] Captain as it doesn't make sense to me that Picard and Janeway should be the same rank (even if they have similar roles) given that Picard has been a Captain since 2333, when Janeway was 5 (at most, other sources suggest she wouldn't be born until as 2344, with intermediate options at 2332 and 2336).

In Romance-language militaries, this tends to be built-in. Ranks that roughly correspond to our LCDR through CAPT all have "captain" in their title. For example, in Brasil the top three line ranks are, from senior to junior (translated): "Captain of Sea and War", "Frigate Captain", and "Corvette Captain".

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

*Nods*

That's the other reason why I like it. Makes Starfleet less Anglo-centric.

Similarly, the Russians have Captain 1st Rank (sleeve insignia of Commodore, but ranks as Captain (naval)), Captain 2nd Rank (sleeve insignia is Captain, ranks with Commander), Captain 3rd Rank (sleeve insignia of Commander, ranks with Lieutenant Commander as a "Captain" or Major) and Captain-Lieutenant (Sleeve Insignia of Lieutenant Commander, ranks with Lieutenant Commanders as DivOs, Lieutenants (naval) and army or marine Captains). They also have three ranks of Lieutenant at OF-2 level (Snr LT, Lt & Jr Lt)

 

[The Wormhole]

Skipping the one-star rank just seems overly antiquated, and even served to momentarily throw me out of the novel where Riker was forcibly promoted.

It seems quite common for characters to be promoted rapidly through the flag ranks in Starfleet. Janeway was presumably promoted directly to Vice Admiral, either that or she was promoted three times in a two year timespan. In Trek XI, Pike was promoted directly to four-star Admiral, and in Beyond Kirk was eligible to be promoted to Vice Admiral, a promotion he applied for and nearly received at the end of the movie and ended up turning down. Hell, aside from the aforementioned admirals in TNG season 1, the only one-star officers we saw outside of TOS was Commodore Forrest in First Flight and Commodore Paris in Beyond.

 

[David cgc]

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason for this is that the behind-the-scenes people thought the one-pip admiral rank looks weird and doesn't read well on screen. With two, you can probably see the box around it better, so it doesn't look so much like they're just a fancy ensign.

 

[Paris]

Wasn't Eric Pressman (TNG S7 - Pegasus) a 1-star Admiral?...or was it 2?

 

[The Wormhole]

Wasn't Eric Pressman (TNG S7 - Pegasus) a 1-star Admiral?...or was it 2?

Two-star

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason for this is that the behind-the-scenes people thought the one-pip admiral rank looks weird and doesn't read well on screen. With two, you can probably see the box around it better, so it doesn't look so much like they're just a fancy ensign.

Indeed, I suspect the only reason Forrest was even made a Commodore in First Flight was just to differentiate him in the flashback scenes from present day where he's an Admiral (Vice Admiral, FYI) but still save money by keeping him in the flag officer's uniform that was likely tailored specifically for Vaughn Armstrong.

 

[Nyotarules]

Did Star Trek have military/navy (yes I said it) advisors? Probably explains why the uniform insignia was all over the place from TOS.

 

[Christopher]

Did Star Trek have military/navy (yes I said it) advisors? Probably explains why the uniform insignia was all over the place from TOS.

I daresay most of TOS's creators were probably WWII veterans, since most American males of that generation would have been. Roddenberry certainly was. But insignias were often all over the place because the budget was tight and they had to reuse existing uniforms where they could.

 

[The Wormhole]

Did Star Trek have military/navy (yes I said it) advisors? Probably explains why the uniform insignia was all over the place from TOS.

Not really, but as noted above many of the TOS writers and producers served in the military themselves. TNG and DS9 had Ron Moore, who was very familiar with the US Navy having even attended the Naval Academy. Indeed, a lot of the more military-accurate stuff in those shows is because of him.

 

[TalonCard]

But insignias were often all over the place because the budget was tight and they had to reuse existing uniforms where they could.

Do you mean to say that the Original Series was a television show beholden to budgetary restrictions? My word, a revelation! Please explain further.

TC

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Nechayev was a vice admiral in her first appearance and wore the rank of that, yet when she was promoted to full admiral she wore the rank of vice admiral, as seen in a couple of episodes of TNG. In 2371 she became a fleet admiral and when she appeared in the ds9 episode the search part 2 as fleet admiral she wore the pips of vice admiral....2 ranks below.

In fact every appearance of hers was her wearing the vice admiral despite 2 promotions in between her appearances.

Which suggests that her promotion to "Fleet Admiral" was lateral (HQ Staff to Field Command) rather than an increase rank (three star to five star). This is consistent with Brackett and Shanthi who also wore three pips as "Fleet Admiral" and are the only other Federation Starfleet Fleet Admirals we've seen that were identified as such on screen and wore insignia that can be compared with other ranks. The mirror Fleet Admiral Gardner appears to wear the same five chevron insignia as his junior, Admiral Black, indicating that in the ISF "Fleet Admiral" isn't a substantive rank but a position title (TrekLit later offers Grand Admiral as an alternative, possibly substantive, rank), the Klingons also used Fleet Admiral (and presumably Admiral) as ranks/titles during the 2100s but the seniority vis-a-vis General there is unclear and with only three battlecruisers seen of Krell's 'fleet' can't be assumed to be the senior position.