Here is how I think the federation works without needing money.

[GabyBee]

Picard said that the acquisition of wealth "is no longer a driving force". He didn't say it was no longer ANY force...

No, he said it was no longer the driving force. Not a driving force.

And he also said "money doesn't exist in the 24th century". It's a pretty explicit statement regarding the economics of the Federation.

 

[Dispaminite]

Money, of course, isn't the issue. It's the attachment to money.

Any society that does away with money but doesn't away with that deeper desire, only rids itself of a very efficient medium of exchange and hence, shoots itself in the foot.

Any society that can truly rid itself of its attachment to money, it's desire to accumulate wealth, no longer needs to do away with money. It's still there, but it's only an instrument to facilitate transactions in an honest manner, nothing more.

So in both cases, I can think of no good reason why they would actually abolish money.

It's an issue because Gene Roddenberry decided, in paradise, they barter.

 

[GabyBee]

Now I'm imaging that out of the 9 billion people on Earth (as of first contact) the far majority prefer to sit in the apartment and play video games, watch videos and read, having little actual interaction with the rest of the world.

The people we see are the small minority that don't want to be couch potatoes eating replicated food until they die from heart attacks in their apartments at the age of 150.

You only speak for yourself... Personally, if money were no object, I would not be sitting inside all day. I'd likely be travelling as much as possible.

In fact, I'm actually heading to the airport in a few hours to fly to Spain for a long weekend for Easter.

 

[Dispaminite]

No, he said it was no longer the driving force. Not a driving force.

And he also said "money doesn't exist in the 24th century". It's a pretty explicit statement regarding the economics of the Federation.

And it's very possible that he was simplifying it for Lily since the "economics of the future are somewhat different."

He might has also been sprouting the company line while distracted by his PTSD situation.

 

[Dispaminite]

You only speak for yourself... Personally, if money were no object, I would not be sitting inside all day. I'd likely be travelling as much as possible.

In fact, I'm actually heading to the airport in a few hours to fly to Spain for a long weekend for Easter.

Which you paid for, with money. Now image if money was no thing and all 9 billion of us were wanting to travel.

 

[1001001]

True, but enough people do that there's got to be some way to control the crowds. When something is free, everyone who wants it can (theoretically) get it, and how do you deal with that?

All the restaurants are free.

The crowds would be no different than they would be usually.

Some people go here, some go there, some stay home, stay eat at different times....

 

[GabyBee]

Which you paid for, with money. Now image if money was no thing and all 9 billion of us were wanting to travel.

With transporter technology, that wouldn't be all that difficult.

 

[Shawnster]

True, but enough people do that there's got to be some way to control the crowds. When something is free, everyone who wants it can (theoretically) get it, and how do you deal with that?

I mean, it's for DAMN sure that if even a halfway decent real life restaurant just started giving its food away for free, all the time, the throngs of people trying to get in would be off the scale.

Is Sisko's the only restaurant in New Orleans or are there plenty of other restaurants to cater the the crowd? Your comment implies Sisko's is the only restaurant in town.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ It's not the only restaurant in town, but it's the only Sisko's in town. Sure, not everyone likes Cajun food, but there are a LOT of people who do. Even if everyone just beams in whenever they want...might take awhile before a space opens up.

if money were no object, I would not be sitting inside all day. I'd likely be travelling as much as possible.

Perhaps. But what about those who wouldn't?

 

[Tenacity]

So, in your opinion, Federation Citizens rely on barter to make deals with each other?

Tuvok trade a herd of horses that he just happen to have with him at the time, in exchange for the meditation lamp.

Or more practically, he used money.

Jake implied that it was just Humans who gave money, and from evidence not even most of them.

The Picard family vineyard operated because they enjoyed producing fine wine. That does not automatically require a replicator.

Okay then how did the Picard family get supplies to run the vineyard. If Robert didn't have a replicator, perhaps he he didn't buy into the concept of no money and therefor sold the wine for a handsome profit and used some of the proceeds to run his families business.

 

[Dispaminite]

Is Sisko's the only restaurant in New Orleans or are there plenty of other restaurants to cater the the crowd? Your comment implies Sisko's is the only restaurant in town.

We're trying to debate life in the US in the 1960s by using examples from Gomer Pyle, USMC. We're probably all wrong.

 

[GabyBee]

If Robert didn't have a replicator, perhaps he he didn't buy into the concept of no money and therefor sold the wine for a handsome profit and used some of the proceeds to run his families business.

At this point you are just making random speculation in order to support a pre-conceived conclusion that contradicts explicitly established canon.

 

[Dispaminite]

This could explain why Starfleet is so much more prevalent in the life of the average Federation citizen on Earth than it would be in our modern society. If you need something done and you can't get someone to do it for you, you call Starfleet and they send someone out to help.

 

[Shawnster]

^ It's not the only restaurant in town, but it's the only Sisko's in town. Sure, not everyone likes Cajun food, but there are a LOT of people who do. Even if everyone just beams in whenever they want...might take awhile before a space opens up.

And Praeto's Pizza is the only pizza place in town that serves double crusted pizza. In 14 years I've not ate at any other local mom and pop pizza joint in town. Given that they all charge the same price, then the size of the crowd is not affected by price. People go where they like the pizza and they become accustomed to the location.

I'm sure Sisko's is no different. It's the only Sisko's, but it's not the only mom and pop gumbo shop. Given that all prices are equal (free) then crowd size is not affected by price. People go where they want to go based upon taste and custom.

 

[Dispaminite]

And Praeto's Pizza is the only pizza place in town that serves double crusted pizza. In 14 years I've not ate at any other local mom and pop pizza joint in town. Given that they all charge the same price, then the size of the crowd is not affected by price. People go where they like the pizza and they become accustomed to the location.

I'm sure Sisko's is no different. It's the only Sisko's, but it's not the only mom and pop gumbo shop. Given that all prices are equal (free) then crowd size is not affected by price. People go where they want to go based upon taste and custom.

That works all well and good until suddenly it doesn't. What happens when Sisko's when everyone wants to go to Sisko's because of his War Hero Son?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And Praeto's Pizza is the only pizza place in town that serves double crusted pizza. In 14 years I've not ate at any other local mom and pop pizza joint in town. Given that they all charge the same price, then the size of the crowd is not affected by price. People go where they like the pizza and they become accustomed to the location.

The difference between that and Sisko's is, of course, the food at Praeto's is not free.

When food (or anything else, really) actually costs something, then there will be people who can't get it. And that's one of the ways crowds stay down.

 

[GabyBee]

You are assuming that restaurants are the only place one can get a meal in the 24th century. Not so. You can just as easily get some gumbo from your home replicator if you so chose. You would go to a restaurant (such as Sisko's) if you sought out the social component of a meal.

 

[at Quark's]

There are also some references in TNG and later series indicating that while replicated meals are adequate, genuinely hand prepared food may still be superior.

 

[GabyBee]

Indeed, but it would likely be akin to the difference between a frozen pre-cooked meal of - say... chicken alfredo - that one could microwave at home, or going out to your favorite Italian restaurant to get it made fresh. Plenty of people do the former, while there is still significant enough demand for the latter.

 

[pgbka]

These points were all discussed above, but it's possible that money is not needed on Earth/federation planets, due to material abundance, but that money still exists and has owners to transact off-world. Jobs are not necessary, but could be paid in currency for such off-world transactions. So there are supply-demand forces at work to deal with scarcity. There are many possible ways the federation makes money (by transacting with non-federation systems), so the money they have would be valuable and could be used to pay for (federation) jobs on earth. This currency then gets used in the underground, but perhaps not necessarily illegal, economy.

People have different priorities and will work for free because of intellectual stimulation/enjoyment. There are still going to be factors at play to limit the demand at Sisko's resturant (I don't think I've seen that episode yet). First of all, since there is such abundance, patrons can go to any number of restaurants and get exquisite food. Secondly, the wait will be different at different places, so will limit people. Thirdly, as has been pointed out, replicators reduce the demand for many things. Plus the money described above could be used (in addition to possible bartering).

The jobs that are not wanted could have been automated by robots/technology.

I do not think that Risa is a Federation planet, it always seemed like lawlessness. Are there any references that Risa was Federation?

Another possible idea is that there is actually money, only not in the way that we think of it today, hence all the references to "no money." Eg, imagine a digital currency that there is such abundance of, that no one has real need to use it. Basically anything that anyone wants/needs could be replicated. You have traditional ownership of land and material possessions, but of course people aren't such interested in these things, and don't really think of it as "theirs". They might have a bank balance but don't use it during most weeks or months. If people so freely distribute it to others, then it might not be considered as money the way that we do today, and , and when they say that there is no money in the federation, it just means that no money is required for actual government purposes.