Here is how I think the federation works without needing money.

[Jayson1]

I had a thought which I think makes the federation look bad but what if it was mandatory that you have to work for you to get free access to food replicators and whatnot? Maybe the Federation has re-invented slavery? You can leave the planet if you want and go live the life you want but if you are on Earth, and other Federation planets you have to work. You do get to choose the type of job you want though you are encouraged to pick things that are on par with the stuff you learned in college or have a aptitude for or even past experience with.

Jason

 

[Tenacity]

The entire argument is that Sisko's would be swamped by customers because the food is free. That argument doesn't consider all restaurants are free.

Or all restaurant charge (except for the salvation army) and you can pick the restaurant that fit your desires and budget.

Sisko's, with it's haute cuisine might be beyond some peoples price range, although Nog was a frequent diner.

what if it was mandatory that you have to work for you to get free access to food replicators and whatnot?

Then it wouldn't be "free" access.

 

[Jayson1]

Or all restaurant charge (except for the salvation army) and you can pick the restaurant that fit your desires and budget.

Sisko's, with it's haute cuisine might be beyond some peoples price range, although Nog was a frequent diner.Then it wouldn't be "free" access.

Free is probably the wrong word. Unlimited access is better. You could spend 5 hours a day cleaning dishes at Sisko's resturant and the reward is you get the works. Free House,hovercar,replicator,computers,holodeck access and even free trips to off world federation planets. I asume there would be other perks as well and maybe things are even reversed from how things are done here in present day. The crap jobs actually pay out more than the more envious job like being a writer,musician etc because a lot of those type of jobs are rewarding into themselves.

Jason

 

[Nightdiamond]

The entire argument is that Sisko's would be swamped by customers because the food is free. That argument doesn't consider all restaurants are free. If someone can't get a seat at Sisko's, they will go down the street to Dwayne Pride's place or any of a hundred other places. It's all free, after all.

Now, the argument about freeloaders overloading the system has its place. But remember, home cooked food is free, too. The example of overloading the system is further back the chain. It's not Sisko's.

As crazy as it sounds, this is exactly what the show seems to be saying though. From A to B--It has been stated that humans don't have money, or that there is no money period. People go to Sisko's restaurant. They eat. They leave. Therefore they must not be paying for anything, because they don't have anything or get paid anything. And we've seen that they obviously catch and clean their seafood.

Very weird.

I had a thought which I think makes the federation look bad but what if it was mandatory that you have to work for you to get free access to food replicators and whatnot? Jason

To me this scenario makes sense, and would explain a lot, but you are right that it would make the Federation look bad. My idea that the replicators would shut off if you ran out of credits, but only give you 3 decent meals a day is less harsh, but I think even that would make the Federation look bad and would be rejected out of hand. The federation still has to look extremely abundant with no scarcity at all.

 

[Tenacity]

Instead of "money" you accumulate "points?"

 

[GabyBee]

There's really no precedent for replicators requiring any sort of "points" in order to function. The only instance we have ever seen rations being used with regards to replicators was on U.S.S. Voyager, and that was under very unique and specific circumstances. In all other cases, replicators were free to use at any time by any person. The Federation is a post-scarcity society.

 

[CorporalClegg]

There's no such thing as a post-scarcity society.

There's always a cost.

*And Voyager wasn't a unique circumstance. It was a microcosm.

The whole idea of non-scarcity is fundamentally flawed. It's either impossible or a paradox.

 

[GabyBee]

It's the same as a society without religion. May not really seem comprehensible to us living in the 21st Century, but it is one of the core tenets of the Star Trek universe, at least on Earth.

 

[CorporalClegg]

No. Those two things aren't remotely similar. When I said "impossible and/or paradoxical" I didn't mean figuratively.

Voyager is the perfect microcosm.

Why was B'Elanna always sending Janeway off to look under every nebula for dilithium/antimatter/deuterium/whatever? Because she needed them as an energy source and they couldn't be replicated.

What do replicators do? They convert matter and energy into something usable. Well, even on a galactic scale, matter and energy are ultimately finite. I could stop right there and argue that there is the scarcity. But I'll go further.

I'll even concede replicators create the matter out of thin air because it was never stated where the matter comes from. But clearly, as I noted above, they require energy to work. And where does the energy come from? The dilithium/antimatter/deuterium/whatever. So we're back to why they can't just replicated it.

I've established the replicators dilithium/antimatter/deuterium/whatever to function. But how much? Well there are three possibles (where X equals input energy and Y equals output energy):

X>Y
This is obviously inefficient and self-defeating, if not stupid.

X=Y
Probably the most likely scenario, but really doesn't get you anywhere.

X<Y
Here comes the paradox--a paradox, I might add, that basically renders just about every Star Trek plot device irrelevant and moot.

None the less, there is clearly a required resource and therefore a cost.

Therefore anything replicated has a value relative to said cost.

Therefore something :coughcurrencycough: is required to regulate said value.

 

[Tenacity]

It's the same as a society without religion. May not really seem comprehensible to us living in the 21st Century, but it is one of the core tenets of the Star Trek universe, at least on Earth.

Hardly a "core tenet" given how much religion we see and hear about on the show.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Yeah, I'm not buying the "society without religion" bit either. (WARNING: I admit I am biased because I am a Christian and my own faith is very important to me.)

Much more likely that humanity has come to terms with its religious diversity and everyone can live with it.

 

[Nyotarules]

Yeah, I'm not buying the "society without religion" bit either. (WARNING: I admit I am biased because I am a Christian and my own faith is very important to me.)

Much more likely that humanity has come to terms with its religious diversity and everyone can live with it.

Yeah that makes sense, if want you to be an extreme fundamentalist of X religion either keep to yourself like the Amish or go find a colony where you can do what you like to whatever Deity you fancy,

 

[The Old Mixer]

I had a thought which I think makes the federation look bad but what if it was mandatory that you have to work for you to get free access to food replicators and whatnot? Maybe the Federation has re-invented slavery? You can leave the planet if you want and go live the life you want but if you are on Earth, and other Federation planets you have to work. You do get to choose the type of job you want though you are encouraged to pick things that are on par with the stuff you learned in college or have a aptitude for or even past experience with.

I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as slavery, but I was thinking along similar lines.

Unlike a lot of assumptions I see, I don't get the impression that Federation/human society is some hippie-drippy paradise where anyone can have whatever they want and do whatever they want or do nothing at all.

I do think that basic needs would be provided for regardless of ability to contribute, but if you want more, you have to earn it, whether or not there's a measurable currency involved.

There would likely be laws and societal pressures, the latter of which would include indoctrination from childhood, that would motivate people to contribute to society via some sort of useful job that fit their capabilities.

Somebody upthread mentioned that maybe not anyone could be a marine biologist because there might be a limited number of positions available. I'd go further than that, using as an example the one career that we see in abundance in Trek--that of a Starfleet officer.

They work in a heavily regulated environment, one that's quasi-military in nature. They not only have to pursue the right type of education to get into this field, but be accepted into a highly competitive institution to get that education. Once they've gotten that out of the way, they have to work their way up the career ladder via performance and aptitude, which is reviewed by their superiors.

JJTrek aside, you can't just decide one day that you want to be a starship commander and have your wish fulfilled. The same would hold true for being a marine biologist, or holding any number of other professional positions. They're not gonna let some idiot with no medical training perform open-heart surgeries because hey, that's what he wants to do with his life.

That's my two cents, take it or leave it.

 

[Nyotarules]

TOS verse
Dear Lt (jg) Kirk no you cannot Captain the Enterprise , Captain Pike is doing a good job already, wait your turn

JJ Verse
Dear Lt (jg) Kirk sure you can be Captain you just saved the Federation! Don't worry about not having any experience, its only a job and you don't get paid anyway.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Yeah that makes sense, if want you to be an extreme fundamentalist of X religion either keep to yourself like the Amish or go find a colony where you can do what you like to whatever Deity you fancy,

Well to be fair I wasn't exactly referring to extreme fundamentalism.

It's just that since there are so many diverse, mainstream religions on Earth right now, I can only assume that by Trek's time, all of these religions have learned to coexist in peace. There wouldn't even be a problem with fundies. Christians, Jews, Muslims and all the rest of them, would be able to get along just fine without any troubles.

The solution is not to forcibly eradicate religion itself; only to eliminate the hate and division between all of them. Once that's done, everything will be fine.

 

[The Wormhole]

It's the same as a society without religion. May not really seem comprehensible to us living in the 21st Century, but it is one of the core tenets of the Star Trek universe, at least on Earth.

No, there is still human religion in Star Trek. TNG Data's Day states there are enough practicing Hindus aboard the Enterprise that they observe Hindu holidays. TNG Sub Rosa shows a church and people are seen making the sign of the cross at the funeral for Dr. Crusher's grandmother. In DS9 Kassidy Yates refers to her mother as a practicing Christian. We see Native American spiritual beliefs being practiced in TNG Journey's End and several times throughout Voyager. In TOS, there was a chapel on the Enterprise and Kirk himself claimed to worship a god. In the Enterprise episode Cold Front we actually get a list of various human religions that Dr. Phlox has observed the services and rituals of. Humans are still religious in Star Trek and have been consistently shown to be throughout the franchise. The only time in which humanity was said to be non-religious was Who Watches the Watchers, and even that's vaguely enough worded to leave wiggle room.

I'm not even religious and would be fine if the myth that humans in the Star Trek universe were secular was true. But it's not, I've just provided eight references to humans practicing religion throughout the Trek franchise, and there's only one saying otherwise. If anything, Who Watches the Watchers is the error, given that it clearly paints Picard as an atheist despite prior episodes making him seem more agnostic.

 

[Push The Button]

People just seem to be better in the future. Perhaps a vaccine will be developed that will prevent people from turning into greedy selfish assholes, like so many of them seem do now.

 

[at Quark's]

^that would actually sound kind of 1984 -ish, a vaccine that is compulsory x months after birth, not to immunize against a set of diseases, but to 'improve' the human. Or do you suppose everyone takes it (or let their children take it) voluntarily ?

 

[Push The Button]

^that would actually sound kind of 1984 -ish, a vaccine that is compulsory x months after birth, not to immunize against a set of diseases, but to 'improve' the human. Or do you suppose everyone takes it (or let their children take it) voluntarily ?

I don't know, but the socialist paradise we are shown in 24th century Trek would never work if populated with 21st century humans. We are a savage child-race, as Q says.

 

[Tenacity]

You could spend 5 hours a day cleaning dishes at Sisko's resturant and the reward is you get the works. Free

That would be you working for agreed upon compensation. What if you could work for so many hours at Sisko's, but you could then use the labor/time you accumulated anywhere within your society, not just at Sisko's? That there would be a book-keeping system that kept track of how many hours you worked, and how much of the compensation you have remaining in a recognized account.

Why would that be any different than me with my job, I have direct deposit into my bank, and I (almost) never see my money?

There's really no precedent for replicators requiring any sort of "points" in order to function.

Consider a show set in present day, when we see characters in restaurants, coffee shops and bars, it's rare that we see people pay for what they consume. How often is it a part of the storyline?

When the gang from DS9 go to the repli-mat on the promenade, I believe they pay for their meals.

I do believe that Guinan charges for the food and drink in Ten Forward, Guinan is a civilian contractor who runs a club on the Enterprise D. Similar to the civilian contractor clubs that operate on some military bases.

The Federation is a post-scarcity society.

No, at least I hope not. I want there to be a bright future where people advance and succeed through their own efforts and abilities. Not a future where the bulk of Humanity have devolved into little more than leeches.

or go find a colony where you can do what you like to whatever Deity you fancy,

I would have a problem with a Earth where there would be a expectation that people with non-mainstream views (not just religion) would have to leave Earth.

If anything, Who Watches the Watchers is the error, given that it clearly paints Picard as an atheist despite prior episodes making him seem more agnostic.

In Who Watches the Watchers, Picard was written as a very different man. Picard could be arrogant about his own beliefs, but never before or since to the extreme degree we saw in Who Watches the Watchers.

Perhaps a vaccine will be developed that will prevent people from turning into greedy selfish assholes

Hopefully such a vaccine would never be used.

We are a savage child-race, as Q says.

Q is a f**king idiot.