Here is how I think the federation works without needing money.

[Dispaminite]

The Federation Credits referenced in TNG "The Price" were being used in a negotiation with a non-Federation world, and were not being used by Federation citizens within the Federation. It is likely that Federation Credits are something that the UFP uses when it conducts deals with foreign entities, but within its own economy, money is not utilized in the same fashion.

Quark was also not a member of the Federation.

There's a distinction: Money is used quite widely within the Star Trek universe. It is just that the Federation does not use it within its own domestic affairs.

Nog said "Currency-based economy" when referring to the Federation though. That doesn't mean that Federation doesn't have some kind of monetary system in place. There were plenty of reference in DS9 to Starfleet personnel having some kind of payment for Quark (Mentions of O'Brien and Bashier's bar tab). Beverly purchased a bolt of cloth from Far Point Station and having it charged up to the ship.

Janeway mentions the price doubling on a meditation lamp when the Vulcan seller found out that Tuvok was Starfleet.

The Bank of Bolias if referenced in DS9.

There was also a cut scene from First Contact which Picard refers to having some Earth Money.

I could see each planet in the Federation having it's own currency with Federation Credits having a value against each type of credit.

 

[GabyBee]

And like a certain other topic, this subject will turn into the song that never ends...

 

[Dispaminite]

And like a certain other topic, this subject will turn into the song that never ends...

Which topic is that?

 

[The Wormhole]

Except that no replicator has ever been portrayed as requiring payment as a condition for its usage.

What about the replicator rations used on Voyager? That's a type of payment, no? Officers are given the rations based on their ranks and duties, they spend the rations on using the replicator. Bonus rations can be earned through favors, doing extra work, whatever. And in one episode the crew were using their rations for gambling purposes. If that's not internal Federation economics, what is?

Oh, right. Gene said there's no money. Never mind.

 

[GabyBee]

Voyager's use of replicator rations is indicative only of Voyager. And they were only instituted once that ship became stranded in the Delta Quadrant. It is not a precedent for the use of replicator rations in the Federation as a whole.

 

[Spot261]

And like a certain other topic, this subject will turn into the song that never ends...

You're learning.....

 

[Nyotarules]

Yes, but it has been explicitly stated on several occasions that the Federation does not use currency or money in its internal affairs. So why would a Federation replicator require money to operate with the aforementioned precedent when no replicator has ever been portrayed in such a manner? It's just a strange thing to suggest. They're not vending machines.

And yet Spock knew exactly how much his training cost Starfleet....so much for no money or currency

 

[Nyotarules]

The Federation Credits referenced in TNG "The Price" were being used in a negotiation with a non-Federation world, and were not being used by Federation citizens within the Federation. It is likely that Federation Credits are something that the UFP uses when it conducts deals with foreign entities, but within its own economy, money is not utilized in the same fashion.

Quark was also not a member of the Federation.

There's a distinction: Money is used quite widely within the Star Trek universe. It is just that the Federation does not use it within its own domestic affairs.

'The trouble with Tribbles' - A Federation trader on a Federation starbase was asked by a Starfleet officer/Federation citizen 'how much is it?'

 

[GabyBee]

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[Ithekro]

I tend to think that something changed for the Federation in general or Earth specifically sometime during the late 23rd Century, so that by the mid-24th Century, there is no currency based economics left on Earth at the very least, and within Federation space in general. There will always be hold outs. Random pockets on specific planets that still use currency, or old fashion traders than refuse to give over to the new economy....or the random planet that doesn't use Federation Standard Units (metric), but still uses archaic British Imperial measurements.

 

[The Old Mixer]

"The economics of the future are somewhat different." That implicitly establishes that there are, indeed, economics. They're just not currency-based.

 

[Nightdiamond]

What do you do for work or what would you like to do? I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not working in a slaughterhouse or sanitation department. I don't know if you dig ditches all day or work on a road construction crew in the hot sun but I'm gonna assume you don't.

And this is what makes humans in the 24th century look kind of weird. I've seen humans risk going to prison, or break the law. Like Kassidy Yates. She's from earth, yet she went to prison for smuggling to the Maquis. Other humans have done similar things. Others work grueling jobs like mining, hauling waste. And other things like being a housekeeper. Which I assume would mean cleaning up after the employer eats, cleaning their house, cooking their food etc. I'm really curious, could we really see someone from the 24th century choosing to do this for free?

But nothing says that replicators and their use is money-free, or that houses come without cost, who really thinks that personal starships are stacking up in orbit waiting for someone to want one on a whim.

If it took GPL to buy a baseball, why wouldn't Jake just replicate enough of "something" to sell for the GPL, and then buy the desired baseball?

That wouldn't work if using the replicator require you to pay for it's use.Okay, now who (or what) determines whether you need an item verses if the item isn't strickly speaking "a need?"

And remember, only a few episodes before Jake had money, now I assume that he had blown all his money in the intervening time period.

Except that no replicator has ever been portrayed as requiring payment as a condition for its usage.

One concept I think is real interesting is that when 24th century humans work, they are paid with some credit that goes directly into the replicator system. So if after getting paid, when you order a prime rib dinner it will deduct the amount in your digital account.

If you happen to have no credits, then the system won't let you go hungry; it will provide you 3 or 4 basic nutritional meals a day to keep you full. It just won't output anything else.

Interesting idea, and it would explain why humans go to work. The problem? That scenario would clash with the utopia that Trek has already established. Humans have an overabundance of food and material goods in the 24th century. There is no need or want. TPTB would never accept the idea of a replicator shutting off if the owner doesn't have enough credits.

Trek would hint that humans used money at times, but kept doubling back down and say with certainty that there simply is no money in the 24th century for humans.

 

[pgbka]

One possibility is that the undesirable jobs have been automated. If all material needs are met, what does it matter what 8 billions humans on Earth do?

Another possibility is that you have a normal economy on Earth, with persons being paid by the federation. Only because there is economic abundance, it is not necessary for anyone to work. The Federation must provide services to a number of worlds, and thus is paid in currency. It can pay out this currency for jobs. Since money is not necessary on Earth, this currency is only useful for people who desire to purchase off-world goods, or who are going to be traveling off-world. Each member of the Federation could also be paid a small stipend, for the off-chance when they will need it. Since money is not needed on Earth, however, no one thinks of this in their active memory, and thus all the references to not having/needing money.

 

[JoeCabby]

So what about land inherited from your ancestors, before the Federation? Does the state steal it from you, just like communism? Give us your vineyard Monsieur Picard or be exterminated?

By going by the idea of open source, I would say the Picard's are the project leaders for the vineyard. Same with Sisko's dad's restaurant.

With the 'everything is free' concept, I'm starting to become a little convinced that the Federation would have a serious problem with its citizens being motivated to work.

I agree, I don't know how you could keep everyone motivated in this kind of environment. I guess if you were raised from birth knowing that your basic necessities are already taken care of you may look for a higher purpose in life.
But imagine new planets joining the federation. If aliens landed right now, gave us unlimited food, shelter and holodecks. I think there'd be a lot of people who sit around doing nothing all day.

 

[The Wormhole]

Voyager's use of replicator rations is indicative only of Voyager. And they were only instituted once that ship became stranded in the Delta Quadrant. It is not a precedent for the use of replicator rations in the Federation as a whole.

They got the idea from somewhere.

 

[Dispaminite]

It takes 10 years for a planet for join the Federation. Part of that 10 years is probably slowly weening the population off money, if the Federation is truly money-less.

But given that there is a Bank of Bolias, I'm starting to lean toward the Federation member planets each having their own monetary systems (Earth still uses dollars) and each planet contributes a little bit of $$ to the Federation, which is then used to deal with the other governments and pay a small paycheck to Starfleet for use outside of the Federation.

 

[Dispaminite]

Now I have to imagine using a replicator to get something is probably free while things like land, a bottle of wine from Chateau Picard, or a meal from Sisko's, a seat on a transport ship does have a cost.

 

[Tenacity]

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And yet Picard himself used money while on vacation on Risa.

A Starfleet officer, from Earth, which is a Federation member, on vacation on Risa, which is another Federation member planet.

Unless you're going to insist that Risa isn't a Federation member planet.

And if Risa (a planet where money is used) isn't a Federation member planet, and people in the federation have no money, then how do people with no money keep going to a planet where money is used?

 

[at Quark's]

^simple. It's part of the charming and slightly quaint culture of Risa to still use money. They do, but it doesn't really count for anything anymore.

Just like there are still pickpockets in 24th century Marseilles, who steal but do so only for the benefit of the tourists,and give it back later... most of the time. At least, according to Tom Paris.

 

[GabyBee]

And yet Picard himself used money while on vacation on Risa.

Just watched TNG "Captain's Holiday", and at no point was Picard explicitly shown using money.