Here is how I think the federation works without needing money.

[Jayson1]

Needing money to operate in non-federation places does make sense. I asume for example that Quark doesn't let starfleet people eat or drink at his bar for free. I wonder though what he gets when they pay him, which you would often see by them giving them a thumb print on that little device he would sometimes carry around. Do you think starfleet goes out and tries to aquire gold press latinium just for these kind of situations. I asume they also have to go get other currency as well for other places in which they operate it. Also I have ever wondered it they can just replicate it and if they cn do that why can't Quark or other Ferengi do that as well?

Jason

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

^As you state, the Federation could obtain latinum (or its virtualised form as bonds) through trading arrangements. However, the Federation must restrict the amount of convertible currency that a citizen or Starfleet member is allowed to spend in non-Federation establishments. Otherwise, it gives free reign for people with alcohol/synthehol/gambling/holosuite addictions to indulge themselves at places like Quark's to the detriment of them well-being and the Federation's credit rating.

 

[Jayson1]

^As you state, the Federation could obtain latinum (or its virtualised form as bonds) through trading arrangements. However, the Federation must restrict the amount of convertible currency that a citizen or Starfleet member is allowed to spend in non-Federation establishments. Otherwise, it gives free reign for people with alcohol/synthehol/gambling/holosuite addictions to indulge themselves at places like Quark's to the detriment of them well-being and the Federation's credit rating.

That makes sense but I wonder if they are also able to expand on how much each officer,ciitzen can spend by striking seperate deals with local business's. Remember that scene were Sisko talks about being a good landlord by not charging him for energy to run his holosuite's or charge him for various repairs they have to do,in the episode were Quark started selling weapons. I asume that at some point after Sisko blackmailed him into staying in the pilot they must have gotten together and came up with some kind of agreement, that might have given federation people cheaper deals when buying stuff at his bar. How this involves the Bajorians who actually own the station I am unasure how that works. I kind of like the idea that there is a missing DS9 scene with Quark,a federation lawyer and a Bajorian lawyer just sitting in a room trying to figure all this stuff out.

Jason

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I kind of like the idea that there is a missing DS9 scene with Quark,a federation lawyer and a Bajorian lawyer just sitting in a room trying to figure all this stuff out.

I kind of like the idea that the scene remain missing.

 

[Jayson1]

I kind of like the idea that the scene remain missing.

But surely they could have replaced the scene with Sisko realizing the life he has been living since the death of his wife isn't being linear with the more important scene of Quark getting all the necessary paperwork done so he can start creating a budget in accordance to the new business arrangement he has just made.

Jason

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

^I think I would require a prefrontal lobotomy to be able to tolerate watching that. Give me good old-fashioned quasi-religious wormhole alien bullshit anytime.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The no money on earth idea would leave humans economically isolated. They may have what they need on earth, but when or if they need something off world, they're helpless. Jake had to rely on Nog to bid for a baseball card, because as he put it, as a human he didn't have money. That would mean minute a human leaves earth, they're financially helpless, because they don't get paid anything on earth.

The problem is we see humans doing crazy things to get money, like breaking the law or smuggling when as the show states, humans have no needs or wants (because of the replicator or no need for money).

Or like Data's housekeeper. The question a fan would ask is would a person living in a society where there is no need for money, choose vocation like that, or is Trek kinda trying to force us to accept the idea and make it look normal?

 

[GabyBee]

Jake had to rely on Nog to bid for a baseball card, because as he put it, as a human he didn't have money.

But Jake didn't need that baseball card. That's what the economy of the Federation is predicated on: Fulfilling the needs of its citizens. Therefore, Federation citizens are left to their own devices to "better themselves" any way they see fit.

In Jake's case, he was only 18 years old when he wanted to bid on that baseball card, and was only motivated to do so as a way to boost his father's spirits. Had Benjamin Sisko been involved in the equation, he would have likely either had petty cash in some form - likely Latinum - to bid on it directly, or known how to call in favors to accumulate some sort of currency to make a bid. Jake was still very young, and hadn't yet figured out how to navigate that part of social interaction, which was the real theme of that story from my understanding.

 

[Shawnster]

This does not seem weird to me at all. If all my material needs were met, I would happily still work for free, because of the enjoyment and intellectual stimulation. If that is the case for me now, then surely it is reasonable to consider it even more so in hundreds of years, when material needs can be met much more easily.

What do you do for work or what would you like to do? I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not working in a slaughterhouse or sanitation department. I don't know if you dig ditches all day or work on a road construction crew in the hot sun but I'm gonna assume you don't.

So, yes, you'll want to continue to work for the enjoyment and intellectual stimulation, but your choice of occupations is going to be a little narrowed because there are some jobs you simply do not want to do. Everyone else is in that same boat. So, what do you do when there are too many people vying for too few jobs? Not everyone who wants to to be a marine biologist on Earth will be able to become one if there aren't enough positions available.

By extension, the workforce needs to have enough diversity so that all the jobs are staffed. What happens to those jobs that people don't want to do? What happens to those jobs where there are not enough employees to fill all the positions?

8 billion humans on Earth. Automation and technology handles a lot of jobs, especially the mundane ones or ones that people don't want to do. What's left? What do all these 8 billion people (and that's 21st century population) do?

Or, does automation and technology handle ALL the dirty jobs people dont want to do? Making toilet paper? Cleaning out the septic system? Picking up dead animals?

 

[Tenacity]

when as the show states, humans have no needs or wants (because of the replicator or no need for money).

But nothing says that replicators and their use is money-free, or that houses come without cost, who really thinks that personal starships are stacking up in orbit waiting for someone to want one on a whim.

If it took GPL to buy a baseball, why wouldn't Jake just replicate enough of "something" to sell for the GPL, and then buy the desired baseball?

That wouldn't work if using the replicator require you to pay for it's use.

But Jake didn't need that baseball card.

Okay, now who (or what) determines whether you need an item verses if the item isn't strickly speaking "a need?"

And remember, only a few episodes before Jake had money, now I assume that he had blown all his money in the intervening time period.

 

[GabyBee]

Except that no replicator has ever been portrayed as requiring payment as a condition for its usage.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I assume replicators could establish who a user is by scanning for biometric data and/or com badges probably have an RFID tag capability or similar internet of things ability and/or all federation citizens are electronically tagged -- contactless payment?

 

[at Quark's]

I was going to respond to this, but I was too busy in the "Is Starfleet a Millitary" threads.

Perhaps we should try to combine these two topics into one. Something like, erm 'How much money/credits does Starfleet allocate to facilitate military, and how much to facilitate scientific purposes?' Wouldn't that be a thread to rule them all ?

 

[Tenacity]

Except that no replicator has ever been portrayed as requiring payment as a condition for its usage.

Nor any mention of being "free for all." And replicators have been protrayed as energy hogs.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Except that no replicator has ever been portrayed as requiring payment as a condition for its usage.

True, but they also haven't been specifically portrayed as NOT requiring payment.

 

[GabyBee]

Yes, but it has been explicitly stated on several occasions that the Federation does not use currency or money in its internal affairs. So why would a Federation replicator require money to operate with the aforementioned precedent when no replicator has ever been portrayed in such a manner? It's just a strange thing to suggest. They're not vending machines.

 

[Dispaminite]

My theory on Federation Monetary Units is something like this:

Each Adult Federation Citizen gets an allotment of Federation Credits (the standard cash used in TNG "The Price"). Children are provided for by their parents. Using energy is such a non-issue that replicating a cup of coffee is costs the average citizen $0.01. So you could eat replicated food and visit Holodecks all day and night long that money is a non-issue.

On the other hand, limited things (meal at Sisko's, Property with a great view of San Francisco Bay) costs significantly more.

True, but they also haven't been specifically portrayed as NOT requiring payment.

Quark also required a thumb print for purchases (as seen multiple episodes). My guess is that on Starfleet vessels/facilities, everything is covered as part of service/passage. (you never see a lot of passengers on the Enterprise).

My theory is that there is a digital currency that runs in the background, but for most people, never think about it. Kids would be covered under their parents accounts, which is why Jake needed to borrow money from Nog to get the baseball card for his father. If he would have just bid on it with his normal means of paying for stuff, his father would have been alerted and ruined the surprise.

Quark probably runs a tab for all Federation citizens and charges the station (padded, of course) which is then automatically deposited into his account. We know Morn had a tab.

 

[GabyBee]

The Federation Credits referenced in TNG "The Price" were being used in a negotiation with a non-Federation world, and were not being used by Federation citizens within the Federation. It is likely that Federation Credits are something that the UFP uses when it conducts deals with foreign entities, but within its own economy, money is not utilized in the same fashion.

Quark was also not a member of the Federation.

There's a distinction: Money is used quite widely within the Star Trek universe. It is just that the Federation does not use it within its own domestic affairs.

 

[Dispaminite]

Yes, but it has been explicitly stated on several occasions that the Federation does not use currency or money in its internal affairs. So why would a Federation replicator require money to operate with the aforementioned precedent when no replicator has ever been portrayed in such a manner? It's just a strange thing to suggest. They're not vending machines.

I would imagine trying to figure out how Federation works for the average citizen is like trying to figure out how the US government runs in 1960s off of Gomer Pyle, USMC.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Yes, but it has been explicitly stated on several occasions that the Federation does not use currency or money in its internal affairs.

They said the Federation doesn't use money, yes. But they didn't say there is no medium of exchange at all. Indeed, with an economy that size, there would have to be.

If all transactions in the Federation are electronic, and no bills or coins change hands, that qualifies. No money = no physical currency, doesn't mean "nothing at all".