In Space no one can hear you navy.
Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)
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While some retcon is probably unavoidable, I prefer to at least try to find a explanation for differences.
That's part of the fun.
No, they just require proper context, which in turn requires a nuanced approach to the issues that takes all the factors into account. To wit: that Starfleet is a paramilitary exploration service developed over time from an overtly non-military space program of the 22nd century; said program vastly under-estimated the threat environment they were moving into, and their early exploration vessels -- armed and equipped only for basic low-intensity law enforcement -- were constantly finding themselves outgunned by pirates and criminals all across the galaxy; that this exploration program eventually developed combat capabilities that were ALMOST competitive with other planets' militaries, and in so doing gained a reputation for being formidable opponents even when they were outgunned (which they almost always were anyway); that this reputation earned Starfleet special status in the Coalition of Planets and later in the Federation, as many other worlds liked the idea of a non-military armed force representing them in all foreign dealings and liked the idea of Earth not being able to lord it over them even more...
"Too long, didn't read... I'm just gonna call them the military because it's simpler."
Sigh...
Well, it's a case of a non-military organization explaining to OTHER people what their ship does and what Starfleet really is.
I mean, I get that YOU think (or want them to be) a military organization, but you haven't done much to convince me that you know more about the Enterprise than Data. If HE says the Enterprise isn't a ship of war, he's the expert on the subject and his words carry a lot more weight than your interpretations.
This describes the TOS Starfleet perfectly, IMO. I always figured everyone in the yellow shirts were assigned to Starfleet from an active duty military service (probably the same service Garth used to serve in; Earth Space Defense Command maybe?) while the red shirts were drawn from a combination of law enforcement agencies and other non-military government employees. Only the blue shirts would have been actual civilians in this schema: doctors, researchers, scientists, botanists, etc. This would have made Starfleet a "combined service" that includes elements of military and non-military personnel, just like NASA.
TNG+ is a different animal, not least of which because various officers swap colors every now and then when they jump from one specialization to another and the man who tells us "Starfleet is not a military organization" is in the command track. So TNG Starfleet is less ambiguous about this. That, plus the fact I'd almost forgotten: the Enterprise deliberately bringing children into a combat zone during their routine missions would technically be considered a war crime if they were actually a military agency. Being paramilitary means that everyone on the ship -- including the "civilians" -- have to be considered combatants as long as they're on board.
Picard's quote to Ro Laren in "Preemptive Strike":
"We're committed to this mission. My only question for you is, can you carry out your orders? I could put you before a board of inquiry for having lied to me about this operation. I would certainly have you court-martialled if you sabotage it. Now, it's your decision."
Now ask some random non-Trekkie people if they think those lines were spoken by:
a) A military (or intelligence) officer.
b) An explorer.
c) A scientist.
d) A diplomat.
"We're committed to this mission. My only question for you is, can you carry out your orders? I could put you before a board of inquiry for having lied to me about this operation. I would certainly have you court-martialled if you sabotage it. Now, it's your decision."
Now ask some random non-Trekkie people if they think those lines were spoken by:
a) A military (or intelligence) officer.
b) An explorer.
c) A scientist.
d) A diplomat.
Definately acting in a military, intelligence or possibly law enforcement capacity there. Tho I don't think the latter has full counrt-martial authority?
As Prime Minister Nevile Chamberlain found out in 1939..'Peace in our time' turned into 'Go ahead do your thing, Hitler'
Again, context is important. Because whatever people might THINK those lines mean, they're being spoken by a man who is an explorer and a scientist and is, by his own words, not a military officer. The context in this case is "Starfleet" and the sentence "Starfleet is not a military organization"
Context, as you know, is everything. For example:
Mike: You alright?
Marcus: No I'm not alright, Mike. Three days of this shit. Got my nerves all rattled. <turns to him> My ass still hurts.
Mike: What?
Marcus: From what you did to it the other night.
Mike: Hey, I didn't mean to be that rough...
Marcus: <Sighs>
Mike: I mean, we got caught up in the moment, things got crazy... you know how I get.
Marucs: Yeah? When you popped me back there, I think you damaged some nerves. Now I... I c...
Mike: You can't what?
Marcus: I can't even get an erection, Mike... I tried takin viagra. I popped one, I popped two... started eaten em like skittles. Still flaccid.
Mike: Um... okay. Look, I'm comfortable talkin to you about what I did to your ass the other night. But you not gettin an erection? That's a real problem for me.
Marcus: I just figured I could talk with you...
Mike: Nah, it's okay. We're partners. We're a partnership. But we're a partnership with boundaries. We got a new rule. From now on, you can't say the word "flaccid" to me. This is our little "boundary box." We're gonna take the word "flaccid" and put it in there with my mom's titties, and your erection problem, and we gonna close this box and we gonna throw this bitch in the ocean. And the only way that you can get to this box is you gotta be motherfuckin' Jacques Cousteau.
Marcus: No I'm not alright, Mike. Three days of this shit. Got my nerves all rattled. <turns to him> My ass still hurts.
Mike: What?
Marcus: From what you did to it the other night.
Mike: Hey, I didn't mean to be that rough...
Marcus: <Sighs>
Mike: I mean, we got caught up in the moment, things got crazy... you know how I get.
Marucs: Yeah? When you popped me back there, I think you damaged some nerves. Now I... I c...
Mike: You can't what?
Marcus: I can't even get an erection, Mike... I tried takin viagra. I popped one, I popped two... started eaten em like skittles. Still flaccid.
Mike: Um... okay. Look, I'm comfortable talkin to you about what I did to your ass the other night. But you not gettin an erection? That's a real problem for me.
Marcus: I just figured I could talk with you...
Mike: Nah, it's okay. We're partners. We're a partnership. But we're a partnership with boundaries. We got a new rule. From now on, you can't say the word "flaccid" to me. This is our little "boundary box." We're gonna take the word "flaccid" and put it in there with my mom's titties, and your erection problem, and we gonna close this box and we gonna throw this bitch in the ocean. And the only way that you can get to this box is you gotta be motherfuckin' Jacques Cousteau.
Ask some random people if this is a conversation between
a) A pair of homosexuals
b) A pair of on-duty police officers
c) A pair of grown men in a video store
d) A pair of idiots with dangerous codependency issues
Just saying: context matters.
The military organization that is Starfleet in not referred to as a military organizatin, but is in fact a military organization.
A hospital is not a hospital, its just a place sick humans attend for repair and maintenance. The staff are really explorers of the human body
Fixed it for you.
It's not a military organization. If it was, they would call it one.
It's an exploration fleet with law enforcement and military capabilities. It's ALWAYS been that, even when its status as a non-military agency was far from ambiguous.
Fixed it back
A hospital is not a hospital, its just a place sick humans attend for repair and maintenance. The staff are really explorers of the human body
You kinda DIDN'T. The analogy doesn't actually work since the quote "the military is not a military organization" isn't something you find in Star Trek. That's an illogical comparison.
You're basically in the position of arguing that doctors are actually police officers because they can detain people against their will, they can report crimes, they can gather evidence that would prove a crime has or hasn't been committed. And hospitals even have these guys called "security guards" that wear uniforms and sometimes carry weapons. Ambulances have sirens just like police cars do, and the people driving those ambulances have radios and walkie talkies just like cops do...
So yes, if you ignore enough of the evidence to the CONTRARY, a hospital is just a police station that thinks it isn't one, and so when a doctor says "Rush Medical Center is not a police station" you can come up wit hall kinds of rationalizations as to why that doctor doesn't know what he's talking about (because OF COURSE it's a police station, they detain people against their will!)
What I've never gotten an answer to in this thread -- at least, since it devolved into pithy one-liners and bumper stickers from the militarists here -- is "Why should we ignore the evidence to the contrary?"
Except all of those could use those exact words. I used to call my holiday from work being on leave, many do. The only thing that is particularly military sounding is court-martial, and even then it's just a term basically meaning 'disciplinary action' that is internal. I am pretty certain that 'disciplinary action' has also been used in Trek. It's using military jargon...but that jargon is also used outside of the military. (NASA again for example, has missions, orders, operations.)
I have been an officer in a service, some of whom are uniformed, many in fact, but I have never been in the military.
The enterprise mission, stated in every title sequence of two series, and a few films, is not military. Starfleets purpose, when explicitly stated, is not military.
The motto for Starfleet is Ex Astris Scientia. Which is pretty non military. Characters have stated it is not military, and by virtue of their status in the franchise cannot be unreliable narrators. Not a one has outright stated the opposite...there's fuzzy edges, and inference based on military jargon or terminology, but it's a bit like declaring the Salvation Army a military.
The ideological argument is a different matter.
(This post was lost for hours cos of typing bug.)
Actually, Picard at least does abhorr the idea of starting a war and feels that it is his responsibility as a Starfleet officer prevent one if possible. So, the above may be as good an explanation as any for "Starfleet is not a military" as anything else.
So, do you agree that "Starfleet is a (multi-role) government agency" is a viable description or not?
Very much this, which is why I would argue that Starfleet's four missions - exploration, research, diplomacy and defence - are in many ways de facto equal even if many of the more idealistic officers (like Picard) prefer to talk down the defense aspect.
It seems there are folks here who don't understand the full implications of "Court Martial." It identifies a military court that enforces justice for members of the military. It cannot exist with military law, which is separate and distinct from a nation's law applicable to the civilian citizenry.
I don't think Picard has ever claimed to be a scientist. He has a hobby in Archeology...as for explorer, and his mission of exploration, since we've seen that in the first two seasons of TNG, there are only two episodes where the mission is exploration or charting stars.
I'd be willing the bet, that the DS9 crew does More exploring in their first two seasons.
I don't think Picard has ever claimed to be a scientist. He has a hobby in Archeology...as for explorer, and his mission of exploration, since we've seen that in the first two seasons of TNG, there are only two episodes where the mission is exploration or charting stars.
I'd be willing the bet, that the DS9 crew does More exploring in their first two seasons.
It is concerning that it has both law enforcement and military capabilities, is it not?
I think lacking a more precise terminology at present, that definition is a fair compromise.
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