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Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

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You've failed to address why Starfleet can't be a military.
Nobody's ever said that can't be.

They simply said that they AREN'T. Whatever else they might be is up for debate, but that particular point really isn't.

If Starfleet were truly non-military, they'd probably be something like the space service in Robert J Sawyer's novel Starplex
Actually, they'd be more like the Contact department from the Culture novels, and Section 31/Starfleet Intelligence would be very much like Special Circumstances.

Which, IMO, they kind of ARE.
 
All right. I think this thread has run its course. Some of the staff have been itching for an excuse to lock it. Well, here it is: lock it.
I'm willing to fulfill the request, but will wait to see if @1001001 concurs.
I for one would ask that it remain open.

The thread is quite civil and the participants seem to be enjoying the subject matter.
 
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(A Ship of Peace by Preference, and War by Necessity. And highly capable at both).

Then again, we have had four different characters explicitly say "The Enterprise is not a ship of war."

And one of my favorite lines from TNG Season one has Worf telling his Klingon renegade friends: "When relieved of its bulk, the Enterprise becomes an exceptional weapon."

IMO, the Enterprise is actually the perfect avatar of what Starfleet really is: It's an exploration ship with a small, combative component. When faced with an enemy, it can detach its civilian/exploratory module and go into combat, in which case it totally kicks ass. But the Enterprise-D isn't a complete starship without the saucer section; it isn't a complete crew without its science officers or the civilian researchers. It isn't a complete mission without its science sensors and its non-combat capabilities are severely limited without the labs, computers and main shuttlebay all housed in the saucer section. Even the MAIN BRIDGE of the ship is in the saucer section, while the battle bridge is totally unused except during separation.

Now consider this: a military vessel dedicated to exploration would be built very differently. We would see a vessel primarily designed for combat to which a smaller, semi-expendable scientific component is attached. The main bridge and primary systems would all be in the main ship, while the scientific module would be an ancillary component, without which the ship would function perfectly well. A "military vessel on a mission of exploration" is exactly what it sounds like...

but the Enterprise-D is an exploration vessel that shed its tactical systems and send THEM into battle independently.

Which, finally, leads us to the very interesting fact that none of the Galaxy Class starships we saw in the Dominion War were actually separated and they all had their saucers attached. The real reason for this, we know, is a simple oversight by the FX team that hadn't remembered that starships could do this (although it's also very curious that USS Odyssey took the time to evacuate the non-essential personnel from the ship instead of simply leaving its saucer section in the Alpha Quadrant). But in-universe, we can conclude the galaxy class starships that participated in the Dominion War were as valuable as they were because they were able to add their scientific capabilities to the mission, despite the loss of agility and combat potential the extra bulk entailed. The same thing happens with the Enterprise-D fighting the Borg: rather than leave the Saucer out of the fight, they decide to use it as part of their strategy and take the Borg by surprise. This suggests to me, not only that the Dominion War is a special case for Starfleet (and could, given the occupation of Cardassia, very EASILY see the end of their non-military status) but that their scientific expertise is Starfleet's biggest advantage anyway.
 
I really don't see what Starfleet does that would be considered "non-military" as everything we see it do are things that the military has done. The only iffy thing is having families on ships in the 24th century, and even that's not completely preposterous given there are military bases today do include civilian housing for the families of civilian personnel. If you want to go outside to other sci-fi franchises, the Alliance in Firefly is as militaristic as they come, yet it is implied their naval ships have families, or at least children, given a reference to there being a nursery on board one.

But bottom line, there is nothing about Starfleet that is non-military at all.
Pretty much this.
Waiting or the lock. :beer:
 
Well yes Star Fleet is the sort of Military branch of The Federation. I love the detail and the work that you put into this. It might be good to note that after WW3 and the first warp flight Star Fleet was based on a military templet but wasn't the love child of the U.S. Navy and NASA but rather a separate entity that wasn't closed off to every country but one.
 
It all goes back to what Starfleet's primary purpose is.

A military's primary purpose is to fight wars. Starfleet's primary purpose is to explore space. Fighting wars is indeed one of Starfleet's purposes, but it is not its primary purpose; it is a secondary purpose of Starfleet.
 
It all goes back to what Starfleet's primary purpose is.

A military's primary purpose is to fight wars. Starfleet's primary purpose is to explore space. Fighting wars is indeed one of Starfleet's purposes, but it is not its primary purpose; it is a secondary purpose of Starfleet.
I'd say they are equal purposes.
 
I doubt that all Starfleet vessels are exploring at the same time. Many would be, of course, but others would be engaged in duties like border patrol, terraforming, diplomacy, intelligence gathering, and even combat. So Starfleet could be doing dozens of things at once, just with different fleets or parts of same.

I mean, Starfleet has dozens - perhaps hundreds - of ship classes, and you can bet they're not all built for pure exploration.
 
And that is the very essence of having a primary purpose, and dozens of secondary purposes. Starfleet's primary purpose of exploration does not abdicate its duties to its secondary purposes. But at the end of the day, the secondary purposes are just that: secondary.
 
But that's the thing: Given that Starfleet has so many duties, and so many ship classes with which it can do those things at the same time, why does it have to have primary and secondary purposes? With this kind of flexibility, all purposes can be equal.
 
And that is why I think it is rather pointless to try to make Starfleet fit some 21st Century definition. Starfleet meets SOME qualifications to be categorized as a "military", and it meets SOME qualifications to be categorized as a "non-military". So really what we need is a new term for what Starfleet is. And until that new term is coined, I think it's better just to call Starfleet Starfleet, and not try to make it fit solely into either definition.
 
Then again, we have had four different characters explicitly say "The Enterprise is not a ship of war."
But it is a ship that engages in war, and was designed with weapons.

The four character's statements are therefor strange.

It's not just a case of a military organization that doesn't describe itself using the term "military," It's people who don't seemingly understand what their own ship does.
 
And that is why I think it is rather pointless to try to make Starfleet fit some 21st Century definition. Starfleet meets SOME qualifications to be categorized as a "military", and it meets SOME qualifications to be categorized as a "non-military". So really what we need is a new term for what Starfleet is. And until that new term is coined, I think it's better just to call Starfleet Starfleet, and not try to make it fit solely into either definition.

Combined service? Government Agency?

Either works for me.
 
Starfleet meets SOME qualifications to be categorized as a "military", and it meets SOME qualifications to be categorized as a "non-military"
Thing is, the non-military aspects can fit quite easily into the military organization.

On the other hand, a non-military organization that it's civilizations sole method of fighting wars just doesn't make sense. It isn't a case of a civilian vessel that is over taken by events and is pressed into fighting. The government agency NOAA does have a small military contingent, but NOAA isn't the United States intended sole war fighting organization.

The Federation uses Starfleet for deliberate force projection, Starfleet is the Federation's war fighter.
Rejected along with UESPA.
TPTB created UESPA after the Federation, and UESPA was include in the Enteprise B's dedication plaque in Generations.

Rarely use yes, rejected no.
 
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There needs to be some form of compromise between the two viewpoints, otherwise this topic will go on ad infinitum. Some compromise that allows for what Picard, Scotty, and others have stated in canon to be true, while at the same time acknowledging Starfleet's duty to defense, whether it be as a primary or secondary purpose, is part of the organization's ethos.
 
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