Which PTB? The people making Star Trek rejected it as the name of the service.
Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)
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^ It was UESPA. Pronounced "you-spah".
I don't think UESPA was ever supposed to be the name of the service, more a civilian agency in the overall chain of command.
I am of two minds on this.
On one hand, once a thread is opened and people participate, it belongs to everyone. We have usually not closed ongoing threads because the OP is done.
On the other hand, I would pay good money to not have to read this infinite loop of a thread any more.
I suppose my personal feelings should take a backseat on this one. There've been no actual warnable posts, just a ludicrous merry-go-round of semantics and hair splitting about something that is completely and utterly meaningless.
If that were the threshold, probably half the threads here would be locked...
It was.
I'm glad they didn't go with UESPA as the actual name of the service, but I like the idea of it being the United Earth government agency which was responsible for Earth Starfleet (and, as per @Christopher's Rise of the Federation novels, it becomes a part of the Federation Starfleet).
That was retconned later. UESPA, the Space Service, Spacefleet Command and Space Central were all used as the operating authority the Enterprise worked under.
Agreed.
Which is why I've been pushing the "Starfleet is a goverment agency" line, as this would allow it to "not a military" as a whole (validating Picard, Scotty et al's comments) but also allow for it to contain military elements to fulfill it's defensive role.
A possible model would be the US Department of Homeland Security which includes a de facto military (USCG), law enforcement (ICE, USSS, CBP, TSA) and disaster/medical relief (FEMA, OHA) and even R & D (S&T).
Not the full range of SF activities, but a merger of DHS and State would probably cover 80 to 90%.
Thoughts?
Alright, that pretty much agrees with my own hesitation to lock it unilaterally on only the OP's request. So it would appear that we're good to leave it open for now.I am of two minds on this.
On one hand, once a thread is opened and people participate, it belongs to everyone. We have usually not closed ongoing threads because the OP is done.
On the other hand, I would pay good money to not have to read this infinite loop of a thread any more.
I suppose my personal feelings should take a backseat on this one. There've been no actual warnable posts, just a ludicrous merry-go-round of semantics and hair splitting about something that is completely and utterly meaningless.
If that were the threshold, probably half the threads here would be locked...
That said, to anyone who's been an active participant in the thread but feels like the argument has run its course and not gotten anywhere: You can always just bow out, having spoken your piece on the matter...probably many times.
You'd then have to lump in NOAA, CDC, NASA, the European Space Agency, ROSCOSMOS, and the list would just become endless. Which is why I don't like using 21st Century institutions as comparisons, because it ends up feeling rather forced.
Starfleet is a government agency, a space service, a space agency, star service, etc. etc. etc.
Those are just names. Most of which are the same thing.
That's the beauty of it all, you can consider it anything you like and not be wrong. If you think Starfleet is something unique, run with it. Some folks will run with you, others not so much.
That's not entirely true:
(This is Ship of Peace, regardless of legalities. The Oberth & Sydney-classes and Raven-type are also likely this.)
I'm specifically talking about the Enterprise D, and Guinan's remark in the aforementioned episode. A peacetime Navy and a Wartime Navy are still a Navy on both Occasions. A Navy can have hospital ships during peacetime and wartime. And hospital ships can be converted to say...troop transports if there is a conflict and there aren't enough troop transports and too many hospital ships, as can civilian transports, freighters, and even vacation cruise ships.
A Navy Ship-of-the-Line, a modern day carrier, and the Enterprise D serve many functions, but during wartime, the D is a battleship. In the Dominion War, we see multitudes of Galaxy class ships leading the battle.
Peace is always preferred, yeah? At least by those who have to fight.
I must say, Shamrock. You're starting to sound like a ........... sympathizer
Until there is a war, then exploration takes a back seat very quickly. When the Jem Hader are shooting at you, star mapping can go hang .
I'm increasingly coming around to the idea that the question is a complex one, given the strong, but differing in - and out - of universe opinions on the topic.
But I'm still on the "military" rather than "paramilitary" side of the issue as far Starfleet as a defense service, particularly as pre-WWII the definition of "military" meant army and "navy" were regarded as "navy".
If Starfleet actually was legally prohibited from starting a war and at least most of its officers abhorred the idea of doing so, I guess that would be a semantic distinction but also a substantial distinction and would make it a very unique type of military, one a lot of people in-universe (both in and out of the Federation) would consider to not be a military, closer to something else (even if instead the similar defensive forces).
The Romulans at times did seem to think the Federation and Starfleet were very inclined to being pacific, notably the idea from "Unification" that with three ships they could occupy and keep Vulcan. I think the 24th century Klingons have also tended to regard Starfleet as weak and as not being warriors for being so reticent to fight.
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I see things like the Space Service as akin to modern day "the naval service" as a unofficial way of referring to the Navy. Vulcan Space Central could be like air traffic control and also customs.
In the case of UESPA, even though Earth has a membership in the Federation, (imho) Earth would continue to have it's own affairs completely separate from the Federation, including interstellar activities.
Unless that peace results in your people losing their lives, the enslavement of your people, the destruction of your way of life, or simply being endlessly taken advantage of.
Then peace is a really crappy idea.
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If the OP is bowing out of the thread, maybe he wouldn't mind if I renamed it...?
I've been itching to do that.
Starfleet Is a Spaaaaace Navy
I've been itching to do that.
Yeah it's easy to rationalize the various changes the show runners made as the show developed. It even makes some sense in-universe that there would be various levels of "authority" involved.
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