I completely agree with you. He was the nicest guy and a complex character. I think a lot of people couldn't get past his looks or his eagerness to please.
I Don't Get Neelix and Kes
- Thread starter Albertese
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I'm not concerned with their relative appearances. No reason Kes couldn't go for a hedgehog-man. That's not the problem I see with it.
I don't get the nature of their relationship. Also, it the case of "Elogium" if they were to mate with the goal of concieving a child, how would that work biologically? Anyhow, the show seems inconsistent about what's gone on between them. Lots of insightful comments in this thread, though. So thanks for the replies.
Right now, I'm watching "Threshold" which demonstrates that the producer of this show know nothing about how evolution works. Anyhow, that's a whole other thread.
--Alex
I don't get the nature of their relationship. Also, it the case of "Elogium" if they were to mate with the goal of concieving a child, how would that work biologically? Anyhow, the show seems inconsistent about what's gone on between them. Lots of insightful comments in this thread, though. So thanks for the replies.
Right now, I'm watching "Threshold" which demonstrates that the producer of this show know nothing about how evolution works. Anyhow, that's a whole other thread.
--Alex
I'm just guessing that Kes consulted the medical database to find out if she and Neelix could produce offspring (i.e. are Talaxians and Ocampa genetically compatible). Or, if not, could the EMH provide medical assistance.
In Star Trek, any alien species can mate with any other. And threshold is like the spiritual sequel to Genesis. Yeah, that's the one where Lieutenant Broccoli devolves into a spider on amphetamines...
EDIT: Of course, Genesis is awesome. And Threshold is...not awesome.
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Some of them are (the book Mosaic comes to mind. It's written by Jeri Taylor) but yeah, generally I don't know how cannon they are. Some of my friends consider them cannon, some don't. I'm on the fence, depending how in-character the characters are in each book.
I like him! He was unique and although he could be annoying at times, his intentions were always good.
I like Neelix. Even when he was personally suffering he was still able care for others. He put himself out there.
The books in which Kes and Neelix share the same quarters are "The Murdered Sun" and "Cybersong".
I don't care at all if those books are "canon" or not since they fit in very well in the Voyager timeline.
I consider the seasons 1-3 books as part of Voyager's journey (see the Kes Website for a Voyager timeline and reviews of the books with mentions of certain contradictions). If something in any of those books contradicts what we've seen on screen, I just skip those parts in the books and pretend that they don't exist.
No, I don't either.
I find Neelix a very complex and interesting character, especially because of his tragic background. OK, he could be difficult to deal with and sometimes downright obnoxious (especially to Tuvok) but most of his faults were caused by his suffering and loss during the Haakonian-Talaxian war when he lost his family in the worst possible way.
Even if Neelix messed up a few things, his intentions were always good and he should be honored for that.
I'm sure you won't since Kes isn't in them but why not give the other books a read? Some of them are very good. Off the top of my head some very good ones are The Nanotech Wars and the String Theory books
I've read up to book 11 "Flashback" and have taken a break from the Voyager books for a bit. I don't know about future books but the ones so far, do fit the show to a T. I especially like how they offer small insights to the minds of the crew in a way the show doesn't or can't (Janeway missing her dog and fiance, Chakotay's spiritualism etc).
I just remembered in the episode "Elogium" Kes and Neelix do talk about having a child and whether they each want to or not (I loved the Tuvok/Neelix and Kes/Doctor scenes!). Neelix didn't know how they'd go in order to conceive a child which makes me wonder, if we accept they were in fact having sex, how did they do it? I mean, from what I understood, In order for Ocampan women to conceive, no intercourse was required, only a ritual that involved hand holding among other things like Kes' parent rubbing her feet etc. Perhaps Ocampans or Talaxians don't have sex the way we understand it at all (or whether they have it as a recreational thing or if it is simply something they do only when it's time to procreate).
No, that doesn't replace the sex, it's just a ritualistic prelude to it.
I watched Elogium recently and it's pretty clear in that episode that they are a serious couple. When she decides at first that she really wants to have a baby, there's no question as to who will sire the child. And if Neelix wouldn't do it, she wouldn't have a baby, end of story.
There's a funny bit of dialogue when she asks him if he's willing. He gets all nervous and says "It's a lot of responsibility. Someone's gonna have to watch out for the little guy."
She replies "It's called parenting!"
As for the mating ritual, it lasts for 6 days where the "stay connected to make sure she conceives" whatever that means
There's a funny bit of dialogue when she asks him if he's willing. He gets all nervous and says "It's a lot of responsibility. Someone's gonna have to watch out for the little guy."
She replies "It's called parenting!"
As for the mating ritual, it lasts for 6 days where the "stay connected to make sure she conceives" whatever that means
Neelix was very annoying in the beginning. I couldn't stand his needy pestering mannerisms. But then... that was the idea. He was intended to be that way. Kes was "with" him purely for survival, I think. Neelix was a survivor. And I think she was with him for that, as well as "best thing around." Once aboard Voyager, she clearly took a liking to Tom Paris, which Neelix sensed in a heartbeat. And as Kes got to know the crew more, the contrast to Neelix grew increasingly hard to dismiss. It was good that she dumped him. Good for him as well. The Neelix character gradually grew out of his awkward, terribly needy persona. Not completely. But enough to shine through in many other respects.However, Neelix was never mean or mistreating in any way, not intentional. He just became very difficult to have around. The same for all his whims which actually did annoy some senior officers from time to time, Tuvok the most.
I remember some comments in one of the books (I can't remember which one right now) when Tom Paris said about Neelix: "Why do his best never turn out to be what we expected from him" which may have some truth in it. In his eager to please, he over-did a lot of things which got the opposite effect. The tragic of his life.
I don't think he became much better in the 4-7 seasons when he was whimpering around Samantha and Naomi Wildman. It was another of his whims, they replaced Kes for him. I guess he had a thing for Samantha as well.
I guess that all of it was the result of his tragic background when he lost his beloved family during the war between Talaxia and Haakonia and therefore left Talaxia to travel among the stars.
But all of that makes Neelix a very interesting character. Really tragic and therefore likeable despite his flaws. The character actually has more depth and dimension that many viewers notice which makes him very interesting-and very likeable!
I think Ethan Philips was typecast for the role. I find it hard to separate him from Neelix, every time I see him interviewed. And... that soft cleft on the tip of his nose -- it really telegraphs Neelix "under his skin." I wonder if the makeup artists chose to exaggerate that as part of the Talaxian look.
It is easy underestimate Neelix. In those early episodes his local knowledge had him at times sitting comfortably on the bridge. Speaking up and commanding. No awkward twitches. Voyager needed him more in those early days when he was finding his feet. It was as time moved on he needed to develop a worth with the crew and adapt, and he did that too.
There is a kind of.. racism and ageism with Neelix that we would not tolerate if he had been that of another familiar race. As a Talaxian but also as a frumpy white guy playing the part. It's like how dare he be with the young ingenue. Shudder. Yet I'm pretty sure we weren't supposed to dismiss Kes's actual attraction to Neelix as being that of some needy creature stuck in a relationship out of gratitude. It was more than that. When they were no longer a couple it seemed to me about when the writers were messing around trying to establish different paths for Kes. However, it did rather validate some of the viewers discomfort that Neelix was punching above his weight.
There is a kind of.. racism and ageism with Neelix that we would not tolerate if he had been that of another familiar race. As a Talaxian but also as a frumpy white guy playing the part. It's like how dare he be with the young ingenue. Shudder. Yet I'm pretty sure we weren't supposed to dismiss Kes's actual attraction to Neelix as being that of some needy creature stuck in a relationship out of gratitude. It was more than that. When they were no longer a couple it seemed to me about when the writers were messing around trying to establish different paths for Kes. However, it did rather validate some of the viewers discomfort that Neelix was punching above his weight.
Yeah, I never hear anyone complaining about Garak(who's in his 40's or 50's?) and Ziyal(teenager?)
Just another example of things Voyager gets overly criticized for that others shows doing the same thing did not
That's kind of what I was trying to say in another post from a while back.
Some people think it's icky for Neelix who seems to be his species equivalent of late thirties or early forties (or maybe older, who knows), to be in a relationship with a young woman who is less than 2. But she is obviously considered an adult because her race only lives 9 years.
However, did the people who watched the show think the same negative things about Tom when he was attracted to her? He may have been closer to thirty than twenty, so relatively speaking he's not that much younger than Neelix. Just to be clear, this is not to be negative about the character of Tom. He's one of my favorites. But it seems like an unfair double standard for people to act like Neelix is a pervert because he loves Kes.
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