A few things to discuss about Kes

[XCV330]

And honestly, I don't care!
And I won't change my mind about certain subjects and Star Trek events either.

That is totally wrong.
If you look at the Ocampa in that underground city, they were peaceful people.

Kes was supposwed to be a nice and curious character, eager to learn and explore. To bring her back only to destroy the character by making her evil was just mean and insulting.

Just like if Picard should be turned into an acoholic whose actions were dangerous to the ship or Riker into a serial killer who arranged "accidents" for everyone who could challenge his position on the ship. Totally out of character and downright bad storytelling.

Why bring back a character they had made every effort to make people forget, if not to insult those who wanted the character back and expressed that by participating in a letter campaign to have her back? (Note that I didn't stage that campaign but I did sign it!)


I'm not open-minded when it comes to meaningless destruction of characters I like. You should have noticed that by now.

It's good we can agree to disagree. I do think early on in PIC they did allow Picard to be a character who was suffering from the choices he'd made, or the things that had happened he had no control of. Obviously they were never going to do a Picard: Breaking Bad.. but really.. now I think of it, it would have been worth watching.

The truth is people do sometimes decline and reject the better angels of their nature and manifest the worst about themselves. I've personally seen it, and I suspect you have too. But I'm not even suggesting that for Kes. In her own manner of thinking, specific to who she was at that place and time, her actions were justified to her.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

At least something! In which animation did that happen?

It was a well hidden "freeze frame and magnify" bit in PRO, and may well have gone undetected by TPTB until after it was released.

No, it should have ended with Kes getting a human lifespan, thus becoming a character which could have been a recurring character in future books.

Of course, if they could keep Kes, that would have been ideal. But I'm acting on the assumption that they had to eliminate the chatacter.

If they really had to dump her, they could had let her leave with that Zahir in Darkling, maybe to return later on in the series instead of coming up with that ridiculous energy-being mumbo-jumbo which we saw in The Gift, an episode which i consider as badly written, made just to get rid of the character as soon as possible. Maybe it was written during a visit to the toilet or during a 20 minute coffee break.

I can go along with that. Darkling would have been a very acceptable exit for her.

OK, I can see your point when it comes to help people which you can help. But at the same time, I can understand Mullibok if he didn't want anything to do with the people who had destroyed his little paradise.

The reason it was dark wasn't that he was saying FU to the authorities alone. He was also denying food to thousands of Bajoran men, women, and children.

Just because an action is understandable doesn't make it right. But my head canon is that Mullibok, in his broken spirit, bitterness, and helpless rage, did the wrong thing.

 

[Lynx]

It's good we can agree to disagree. I do think early on in PIC they did allow Picard to be a character who was suffering from the choices he'd made, or the things that had happened he had no control of. Obviously they were never going to do a Picard: Breaking Bad.. but really.. now I think of it, it would have been worth watching.

The truth is people do sometimes decline and reject the better angels of their nature and manifest the worst about themselves. I've personally seen it, and I suspect you have too. But I'm not even suggesting that for Kes. In her own manner of thinking, specific to who she was at that place and time, her actions were justified to her.

Honestly, as I see it PIC was a terrible series.

It was basically TNG From Hell, a gloomy dystopian series wich ruined the TNG characters, the funeral of the 1980's and 1990's Star Trek which I consider the best era ever of Star Trek.

I managed to watch the first season, then I finally gave up on it and I have no intention to watch any of it.

Just the thought of future Star Trek series being based on the legacy of PIC and the even worse DSC have made it ieasy for me to make the decision to stay as far away from those productions as possible.

I actually had some hope for SNW, even if I don't like prequels since they often mess up established timelines. But when characters like "fake Spock", "fake Uhura" and "fake Scotty" showed up, I gave up on that one too, honestly regretting the money I actually spent on a streaming service to watch it.

The Star Trek books could have been my life saving pod but after discovering the destruction of many good characters even there and faced with a future in which future books also are built on the legacy from PIC and DSC, I've given up on them too.

I have no interest at all in reading about Janeway as some recluse in an Irish castle becoming pregnant with herself and I have no interest at all in reading books in which characters like Chakotay, Paris, Torres and others are described as boring old farts with lives not more interesting than Mr. Brown next door and I have no interest at all in reading about favorite characters like Garak being humiliated, destroyed and finally killed off by PIC characters.

If I ever plan to read a Star Trek book again, then I will first check " my best friend" Memory Beta to see what it is about and then, as further precaution I will check with friends who may have read them before I buy it myself.

The same for series which takes place in the 24th century. What I read about PRO and Wesley Crusher as one of the Travelers made me lose every interest for that series.

Out in the street somebody's crying
Out in the night the fires burn
Maybe tonight somebody's crying
Reached the point of no return

Oh, my eyes they see but I can't believe
Oh, my heart is heavy as I turn my back and leave

Like the eagle and the dove
Fly so high on wings above
When all you see can only bring you sadness
Like a river we will flow
On towards the sea we go
When all you do can only bring you sadness
Out on the sea of madness

"Sea Of Madness"
Iron Maiden

It was a well hidden "freeze frame and magnify" bit in PRO, and may well have gone undetected by TPTB until after it was released.

The censorship did miss it! Now that is at least a victory, even if it is small.

Of course, if they could keep Kes, that would have been ideal. But I'm acting on the assumption that they had to eliminate the chatacter.

I have to disagree here since I act on the assumption that the elimination of the character and the firing of the actrtess was unnecessary and a bad move.

I can go along with that. Darkling would have been a very acceptable exit for her

Not acceptable actually but the least bad solution if they wanted to dump the character.

The reason it was dark wasn't that he was saying FU to the authorities alone. He was also denying food to thousands of Bajoran men, women, and children.

Yes, he did that. But I can see his point there too. He just didn't want to have anything to do with them.

Just because an action is understandable doesn't make it right. But my head canon is that Mullibok, in his broken spirit, bitterness, and helpless rage, did the wrong thing.

He did the wrong thing but there was a reason for it.

 

[XCV330]

Honestly, as I see it PIC was a terrible series.

We have reached consensus.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

We have reached consensus.

It's just not a horror series.

But, what do I know? I think TNG ended with All Good Things, and one of the only tolerable Q appearances.

 

[XCV330]

It's just not a horror series.

But, what do I know? I think TNG ended with All Good Things, and one of the only tolerable Q appearances.

I don't think Picard was a horror series, just a horrible series.
Each season seemed completely out of context with the season before. It was gruesomely violent for no reason, turned the Federation into a nearly complete failure and finally ended up as it was always going to: a geriatric reunion.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

I don't think Picard was a horror series, just a horrible series.
Each season seemed completely out of context with the season before. It was gruesomely violent for no reason, turned the Federation into a nearly complete failure and finally ended up as it was always going to: a geriatric reunion.

It felt very much like Deep Space Nine follow up with limited understanding of that shows success.

But, this isn't that thread for that. I just found the "From Hell" comment odd.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

It was basically TNG From Hell, a gloomy dystopian series wich ruined the TNG characters, the funeral of the 1980's and 1990's Star Trek which I consider the best era ever of Star Trek.

I thought the results were mixed. Beverly felt like "All Good Things" all over again. Geordi and the Rikers were OK. And it was a clever way to bring back Data.

But still pissed that they caved to the EE crowd and canceled Harry's return as a captain.

Just the thought of future Star Trek series being based on the legacy of PIC and the even worse DSC have made it ieasy for me to make the decision to stay as far away from those productions as possible.

That's fine. Plenty of Trek for us to enjoy.

I actually had some hope for SNW, even if I don't like prequels since they often mess up established timelines. But when characters like "fake Spock", "fake Uhura" and "fake Scotty" showed up, I gave up on that one too, honestly regretting the money I actually spent on a streaming service to watch it.

I actually liked that they explored Scotty and Uhura more... they were underused in TOS.

I have no interest at all in reading about Janeway as some recluse in an Irish castle becoming pregnant with herself

Hard disagree. I think that Phoebe Janeway using her sister's stored ova to give her a legacy (who she presumably carried, not Kathryn) was a beautiful way to honor her lost sister.

I have no interest at all in reading books in which characters like Chakotay, Paris, Torres and others are described as boring old farts with lives not more interesting than Mr. Brown next door

Well, it's non-canon. Basically, paid fanfiction.

The same for series which takes place in the 24th century. What I read about PRO and Wesley Crusher as one of the Travelers made me lose every interest for that series.

Honestly, your loss. PRO was a great series, deserving of a third season.

And while I didn't like Wes's fate in "Journey's End", it did grow on me after the PIC vignette and PRO. I think it worked.

The censorship did miss it! Now that is at least a victory, even if it is small.

And Memory Alpha includes it as canon... for now. But if they deleted the wall, this might change as well.

Yes, he did that. But I can see his point there too. He just didn't want to have anything to do with them.

He did the wrong thing but there was a reason for it.

Yes. No disagreement. It's my head canon after all. Maybe in someone else's, he settled in on Bajor, made friends, and lived a happy and productive life. Or maybe in a third person's, he grabbed Kira's phaser out of its holster and blasted himself to ions three seconds after they materialized on DS9. But I called it like I saw it.

But, this isn't that thread for that. I just found the "From Hell" comment odd.

Lynx is like me. We both can get... a little emotionally involved in things that matter to us. Including our fandoms.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

Lynx is like me. We both can get... a little emotionally involved in things that matter to us. Including our fandoms.

I'll grant that but it's often hyperbolic and I'm sometimes too literal for my own good.

 

[ILoveVoyager]

1. Do you think that Kes eventually reached Earth and reunited with the Voyager crew? Either in an alternate timeline or somewhere in between Prodigy and Picard (although, in this case, she had to stay small so as to not interfere with events too much)?
2. Do you think Kes’ lifespan was eventually extended (like suggested in Cold Fire)?
3. Do you think Kes should join Starfleet and what rank do you think she should have if yes?
4. Do you think Kes would have taken issues with certain aspects of Vulcan culture, especially their marriage customs (especially due to her experiences in her relationship with Neelix and she would probably clearly see these customs can lead to even greater possessiveness than Neelix displayed towards her, and Kes’ ability to look at things from different angle would matter here too)?

Okay I will be brief.
1. No probably not. She'd die before she even got close to Voyager.
2. Hopefully not- I feel like Kes' short lifespan is an important part of her character in my opinion. Kes wouldn't have the innocence, curiosity, and naivety that really makes her Kes.
3. She would not make it past ensign.
4. Yes pretty much. that's very insightful.

 

[Uncle Sock]

As should be apparent from my activities on the forum, I really like Kes (well, Kes from Seasons 1 - 3). It has been some time since I talked about her last time, and I would like to discuss a few things about her.

1. Do you think that Kes eventually reached Earth and reunited with the Voyager crew? Either in an alternate timeline or somewhere in between Prodigy and Picard (although, in this case, she had to stay small so as to not interfere with events too much)?
2. Do you think Kes’ lifespan was eventually extended (like suggested in Cold Fire)?
3. Do you think Kes should join Starfleet and what rank do you think she should have if yes?
4. Do you think Kes would have taken issues with certain aspects of Vulcan culture, especially their marriage customs (especially due to her experiences in her relationship with Neelix and she would probably clearly see these customs can lead to even greater possessiveness than Neelix displayed towards her, and Kes’ ability to look at things from different angle would matter here too)?

1. I don’t see any reason for Kes to try to reach Earth at all. I’ve always understood her departure in “The Gift” as a transition to a higher plane of existence. If anything, she might appear on Earth someday as an evolved, interdimensional being just to say hello, but I don’t think reaching Earth was ever her goal. So my answer is no.
2. I have stated in this forum before that I'm not a fan of her lifespan being extended. Her short life was a defining part of what made Kes unique. I get why people would want that changed—she’s a beloved character, and I like her a lot too—but this was how she was established. I would have preferred the writers to explore that aspect even more, especially the consequences of her living among species who live many times longer than she does.
3. From what we see in “Before and After,” Kes eventually becomes one of the ship’s doctors, and possibly even wears a uniform. But as Troi notes in “Thine Own Self,” Beverly Crusher didn’t need a rank to serve as chief medical officer, and even Seven’s holographic fantasy shows her in uniform without rank insignia. So it’s possible Kes joined Starfleet in title only, wearing blue but without a formal rank. If Janeway had granted her a commission, though, I think Kes would have deserved at least a full lieutenant’s rank, given her relative age and experience.
4. I’m not entirely sure what specific issues you have in mind, but it’s definitely plausible that Kes would have taken an interest in Vulcan customs because of her friendship with Tuvok. At the same time, Kes was always curious while also being grounded in her own values. She might have been interested and asked questions, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she would have taken issue with anything. Being curious is one thing; taking a stand is another, and I don’t really see Kes doing the latter here.

As for her relationship with Neelix: she never should have been paired with him romantically. Even setting the characters aside, the age gap between the actors was uncomfortable—Jennifer Lien was only 20 in 1995, while Ethan Phillips was already 40. I never saw Kes and Neelix as equals in that relationship. It always felt like Neelix was overly protective to the point of being paternal, and that dynamic made me deeply uncomfortable.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

@Lynx - You seem quite displeased about how Una McCormack chose to end each VOY character's journey. If you don't mind saying, what do you think should have happened to them? We already know about Kes: she gains a normal human lifespan. What about the rest of them? What would you have done differently?