• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Opinions on Michael Eddington

The Maquis obviously wanted a life for themselves and wouldn't have turned on the federation had the federation not fed them to the wolves.

Eddington being a man of both principle and vision saw how wrong,political, and cynical that was and knew he could lead those who had been sold up the river to victory and everlasting happiness and freedom. He would not have joined had he not those qualities.

That makes him a man worth Hagiographing.
 
had the federation not fed them to the wolves.

You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what YOU think it means.

Seriously. Rewatch "Journey's End" if you don't believe me. The Federation did NOT want to leave those colonists at the Cardassians' mercy. It was the colonists who chose to do so. So don't go telling me that the Federation abandoned them - it was their idea, not the UFP's. The Federation gave plenty of warning, but the colonists chose to stay anyway. So who abandoned who, really?
 
You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what YOU think it means.

Seriously. Rewatch "Journey's End" if you don't believe me. The Federation did NOT want to leave those colonists at the Cardassians' mercy. It was the colonists who chose to do so. So don't go telling me that the Federation abandoned them - it was their idea, not the UFP's. The Federation gave plenty of warning, but the colonists chose to stay anyway. So who abandoned who, really?
The federation gave them a choice either leave the communities and lives you've built for politics and the sake of Peace(TM). Or your on your own.

The federation put political expediency with an autocratic, aggressive state ahead of its own people's lives.

And I'll tell you why the Federation is afraid of hard moral calls that involve killing. It negates its own populations self interests for the sake of peace yet engages in dirty operations for its own survival.

Sisko didn't get the romulans to join the war for Romulan interests, they joined ultimately for Federation interests. The Colonies were traded away to keep up frosty relations with a state that was NEVER going to negotiate in good faith with the hope that somehow it might change its attitude one day. Throwing those colonists lives away in the process.

The Federation is utterly afraid of Just Wars. It's only willing to fight if it's very survival is at stake, beyond that Border Skirmishes are apparently a drain on its resources.

Which is further backed up by the Yesterday's Enteprise timeline. Apparently the Federation can't defeat a rival competitor(Klingon Empire).

It vacillates between Bashirian idealism and Sloanian cynicism without full committal or the look at other choices. Namely just wars carried to victory that preserve idealism and self interest.

The moral decision was to wage war against the Cardassians/support a democratic movement. Until the whole equilibrium had shifted-either the federation conquers Cardassia and forces them to change their ways or puts a government in place that will one day join.

The federation so terrified of expending a some blood and treasure ends up loosing a lot of good people and spending more blood and treasure than if it had taken the fight to the Cardassians a decade prior.
 
The federation gave them a choice either leave the communities and lives you've built for politics and the sake of Peace(TM). Or your on your own.

Exactly. The Federation gave them a choice. An informed choice.

The federation put political expediency with an autocratic, aggressive state ahead of its own people's lives.

If the treaty establishing the DMZ had never been signed, there would be war with Cardassia and thus "its own people's lives" may well have been forfeit anyway.
 
Do you have any idea how completely nonsensical that sounds?

War is never "necessary". Governments negotiate agreements (intended to prevent war) all the time. War is to be avoided whenever possible.
I hate to be that guy but WW2 was necessary(forgive me I genuinely hate that sort of cliche). The American Revolutionary War was necessary. The Reconquista was necessary. The Israeli War of Independence was necessary. WW1(depending on the power) was necessary. The Russian Revolution was necessary. The American Civil war was necessary(depends upon idealogy more so here. The Judean Revolt in 70 AD was necessary. The crusades were necessary.
 
Actually I'd suggest most of those could have been avoided given hindsight, except the crusades which were just unecessary fiull stop.

WW11 was a classic example of head in the sand
 
Actually I'd suggest most of those could have been avoided given hindsight, except the crusades which were just unecessary fiull stop.

WW11 was a classic example of head in the sand
The crusades were necessary to protect Christian pilgrims and the holy sites. Also to keep the Turks from re-uniting Muslim lands.

WW1 was necessary for the British to keep KaiserReich from happening, for the Germans to become KaiserReich. The French preserve their independence and standing.

Russia get Galicia and keep the Germans from gobbling up the western part of the Empire.

But that's another discussion.

Suffice to say war is a necessary tool and instrument of policy.
 
No, it typically isn't. The Crusades were only superficially about protecting those pilgrims, that was a superficial cover for looting the middle east, which are still having ramifications centuries later. The Templars became extraordinarily rich as a result whilst actually causing far more deaths than they prevented.
 
No, it typically isn't. The Crusades were only superficially about protecting those pilgrims, that was a superficial cover for looting the middle east, which are still having ramifications centuries later. The Templars became extraordinarily rich as a result whilst actually causing far more deaths than they prevented.
Spare me the guilt tripped revisionist propaganda. The Europeans made no real extraction from the Middle East and a lot of nobles went bankrupt supporting it.

Really don't impose your modern view of politics and religion on the 12th century.

Sometimes war carried through to the end is the only moral course of action. The federation apparently isn't willing to fight just wars. It's willing to compromise everything its citizens hold dear-Picardian/Bashirian values for Sloanian expediency. When um its back is against the wall. Other than that it can only carry out border wars without apparently either losing or losing its soul.

Here's the federation's real problem-the elite-admiralty, Section 31 and the brass don't believe that with smiles love and root beer peace and happiness will be achieved. Their cynical and can only imagine defending what they have. Most of the federation citizenry thinks in Bashirian/Picardian terms and has similar ideas and aspirations.

People like Eddington exposed to both the genuine idealism and good will of the federation with the politicking and brass scheming and schmoozing quickly questions the idealogy of expansion and innate(ideological) superiority the federation is built on.

The federation isn't willing to hold both its self interest and noble principles in anything but a tenuous doublethink. Like 1984 it counterposes two separate ideas. "We have to bucker down, get suspicious and cynical and we'll survive that way. The other side says "No we must uphold our principles and showcase that in our hearts we are better and the light we shine will illuminate others."

It can't say well yes we'll shine our light and be compassionate and graceful and understanding but yes will also defend our people, we won't make deals with Devils to keep our comforts at bay from bigger Devils but we will conduct diplomacy with all. Showing by both are manner of existence and behavior and a military might that others should join us.

It can't integrate those two notions apparently.

Once it gets over that ideological hurdle it can begin to accept just wars. A war against the Cardassians say in the 2360s carried out to total victory and occupation of Cardassia while probably very destructive would have avoided the Maquis Crisis and put the Federation in a stronger position a decade later.
 
No, it typically isn't. The Crusades were only superficially about protecting those pilgrims, that was a superficial cover for looting the middle east, which are still having ramifications centuries later. The Templars became extraordinarily rich as a result whilst actually causing far more deaths than they prevented.
Spare me the guilt tripped revisionist propaganda. The Europeans made no real extraction from the Middle East and a lot of nobles went bankrupt supporting it.

Really don't impose your modern view of politics and religion on the 12th century.

Sometimes war carried through to the end is the only moral course of action. The federation apparently isn't willing to fight just wars. It's willing to compromise everything its citizens hold dear-Picardian/Bashirian values for Sloanian expediency. When um its back is against the wall. Other than that it can only carry out border wars without apparently either losing or losing its soul.

Here's the federation's real problem-the elite-admiralty, Section 31 and the brass don't believe that with smiles love and root beer peace and happiness will be achieved. Their cynical and can only imagine defending what they have. Most of the federation citizenry thinks in Bashirian/Picardian terms and has similar ideas and aspirations.

People like Eddington exposed to both the genuine idealism and good will of the federation with the politicking and brass scheming and schmoozing quickly questions the idealogy of expansion and innate(ideological) superiority the federation is built on.

The federation isn't willing to hold both its self interest and noble principles in anything but a tenuous doublethink. Like 1984 it counterposes two separate ideas. "We have to bucker down, get suspicious and cynical and we'll survive that way. The other side says "No we must uphold our principles and showcase that in our hearts we are better and the light we shine will illuminate others."

It can't say well yes we'll shine our light and be compassionate and graceful and understanding but yes will also defend our people, we won't make deals with Devils to keep our comforts at bay from bigger Devils but we will conduct diplomacy with all. Showing by both are manner of existence and behavior and a military might that others should join us.

It can't integrate those two notions apparently.

Once it gets over that ideological hurdle it can begin to accept just wars. A war against the Cardassians say in the 2360s carried out to total victory and occupation of Cardassia while probably very destructive would have avoided the Maquis Crisis and put the Federation in a stronger position a decade later.
 
As in billions dead would have meant a few thousand colinists would have died in the war instead of having the option of moving.
 
As in billions dead would have meant a few thousand colinists would have died in the war instead of having the option of moving.
As opposed to probably a lot more dead both Cardassian and federation citizens a decade later. I dunno like 10-20 billion.
 
Rewatch "Journey's End" if you don't believe me.

...after 20 years of lurking here, that is the cruelest suggestion I've seen.

However, that would have neatly solved the conflict.

"If you damn colonists dont move your butts right now we are going to make you watch this entire episode and rewind for the Wesley lines. If that doesnt work, we'll move onto nightly screenings of 'Sub Rosa'"
 
  • Like
Reactions: kkt
As opposed to probably a lot more dead both Cardassian and federation citizens a decade later. I dunno like 10-20 billion.



The problem is that the Federation had no way of foreseeing .the Dominion conflict, they had no idea the Dominion even existed at that point, whereas they had every way of foreseeing the outcome of a conflict between the known powers. The colonists in the DMZ would have been the first to die anyway, along with billions on either side. All to prevent having to relocate a relativey small number of colonists, saving their lives in the process. That was the ideal Eddington sought glory for. Millions of people who had no involvement whatsoever having THEIR homes destroyed, THEIR families killed. On both sides. And he did it in order to feel better about himself.

Ultimately the "Maquis crisis" (using your terminology) was only a crisis in that it risked sparking off the very war you are proposing. Had the Federation shared your mindset they wouldn't be a "crisis".

Part of the ideals of the Federation is that their compassion extends to outsiders, even enemy combatants where possible, thus they will avoid conflict based on that alone. That isn't cowardice, they simply aren't inclined to fight if diplomacy is possible. Had the Klingons been in their shoes, doubtless they would have acted much as you suggest, but the Klingons are perpetually in a state of crisis precisely because of that mindset.

I suppose a lot of this comes down to your own personal politics as you say. I'm not an outright pacifist but I do see warfare as ultimately representing a failure of government. The best leaders manage to keep the peace and move the world forward quietly and consciesciously, they make deals, they improve the quality of life for their citizens, they avoid conflict because it's rarely, if ever, genuinely in the people's best interest.

Wars happen when that goes wrong, when people become stubborn and prideful, vainglorious or refuse to back down to maintain face. When people seek their legacy for the history books or become tribal in how they value lives. It seems you and I define "absolutely necessary" differently. I put emphasis on the "absolutely" part, because whilst the outcome of wars are so difficult to predict the one guarantee is suffering.

For me the best leaders are the ones we barely hear of, because nothing overtly world changing happened under their watch. The ones who see the iceberg well ahead of time and steer the ship calmly to evade it in clear waters, rather than pull off an emergency manouevre to scrape by, or some heroics to save the sinking ship. The ones where the public barely have an inkling there was any danger because the risk was managed without incident.

Fighting WWII, for example, becomes necessary from Churchills perspective once in power, of course it was because the ship had already hit the iceberg. Had people paid closer and wiser attention to the economic circumstances post WWI it could readily have been foreseen and mitigated if not avoided outright. That's the role of good foreign policy.

The Europeans made no real extraction from the Middle East and a lot of nobles went bankrupt supporting it.

I never said "The Europeans", I said "The Templars", who did in fact amass incredible wealth and power whilst actually saving very few people (but causing the deaths of many). That wealth was very much part of their later downfall when they were effectively purged by Philip IV who was irredeemably in debt to the financial institutions they built with that wealth. They made a lot of enemies at the time amongst the nobles you refer to who did indeed bankroll the Crusades whilst seeing no return.
 
Just to say as I read this thread both sides arguments are so well presented I keep swinging back and forth. However why did the Federation allow colonies so close to Cardassian space? And they did the same thing when they discovered the Gamma quadrant. Why not keep your ass at home!
 
Last edited:
Sisko in a manner befitting the vanity of Starfleet said that-that Eddington led his people to doom and promised them something impossible.

I disagree Eddington led the Maquis to great success, the Cardassians were on the run and the federation was reeling.

History is often more contingent than admitted.

I can fully empathize with Eddington you want glory and fame and adoration yet also you want to subsume yourself in a cause greater than you. That's a very real sentiment. No one wants to be the foot solider or the cook. And no one wants to be rich but not remembered or lead a mundane existence doing so.

Eddington had he prevailed(and arguably anyway) could have caused great ripples throughout the federation and the Galaxy.

Leading the troops into battle, going up against the Titans, yet having a cause you devote your heart and soul for is truly admirable.

Without the cook you would starve to death, a hospital without cleaners is a deathtrap a hospital without doctors is just like your home.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top