As a religious person, considering how easily offended some of us are, probably best for the writers to stay well clear of real life human religions apart from someone mentioning Christmas, Passover, Hannukah, Diwali or Eid in passing.
How Can Religion Get Portrayed Like DS9 Again?
- Thread starter VulcanMindBlown
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http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Bajoran_religion
The Bajoran religion was one of a number of storylines explored, but isn't the be-all, end-all of the series. Unless you want a Star Trek show centered specifically around a religion, what we got was more than adequate.
I notice the posted article (which I had read before) answered not one of the questions I asked.
Part of what frustrates me about this question--which I've brought up before--is how frankly no one ever seems to even try and understand what I mean. Or they cannot. Or something! I even give plenty of examples from other space opera shows--Battlestar Galactica, Lexx, Babylon 5, even a specific one from Star Trek (Klingons)--and some kind of blind spot continues to seem to function. And I still don't know how do the Bajorans react culturally to death? For that matter how do Bajorans define what is good and what is bad in terms of their religion? What do they imagine the nature of the Prophets? Are they akin to the Valar in LOTR, eternal guardians of the world? Are they sublime creatures in an Enlightened state of being a la the Buddhas? Do they embody certain aspects of creation, like the Norse and Greco-Roman deities? I don't know. I don't have any hint of this or any of the other questions I've asked. And a few strong hints are all I wanted, to inform Bajoran culture the same way the Klingon image of themselves as warriors, or the Vulcan adherence to self control, or the Ferengi absolute materialism informs their cultures. Instead we get a vague word "religion" that is never defined. In other words, it means nothing. It is just a blank generic, featureless religion with no world view, nothing that impacts behavior, nothing that offers us any insight into their people or their history. Hell, I was never even able to find a hint as to what Bajorans believed the Tears of the Prophets even were, other than important for some reason. But important why? Are they like Medieval relics, pieces of holy magic? Or are they messages from the Gods, for those who manage to figure out how to read them? Or are they gifts a la Excalibur, the Ark of the Covenant, the Kabala stone, etc.? I don't know, and neither does anyone else because no one with the authority to do so ever made a decision.
And I gotta say, Babylon 5 got away with referring to a female Pope and a married couple who were both Jesuit priests. BSG had all the heroes be polytheists while the evil Cylons worshiped just one God. Mentioning religion is hardly the stuff to ruin the ratings of a show. At worst you get a few die-hard science fiction fans foaming at the mouth at the idea a high tech society would still have a religion.
Part of what frustrates me about this question--which I've brought up before--is how frankly no one ever seems to even try and understand what I mean. Or they cannot. Or something! I even give plenty of examples from other space opera shows--Battlestar Galactica, Lexx, Babylon 5, even a specific one from Star Trek (Klingons)--and some kind of blind spot continues to seem to function. And I still don't know how do the Bajorans react culturally to death? For that matter how do Bajorans define what is good and what is bad in terms of their religion? What do they imagine the nature of the Prophets? Are they akin to the Valar in LOTR, eternal guardians of the world? Are they sublime creatures in an Enlightened state of being a la the Buddhas? Do they embody certain aspects of creation, like the Norse and Greco-Roman deities? I don't know. I don't have any hint of this or any of the other questions I've asked. And a few strong hints are all I wanted, to inform Bajoran culture the same way the Klingon image of themselves as warriors, or the Vulcan adherence to self control, or the Ferengi absolute materialism informs their cultures. Instead we get a vague word "religion" that is never defined. In other words, it means nothing. It is just a blank generic, featureless religion with no world view, nothing that impacts behavior, nothing that offers us any insight into their people or their history. Hell, I was never even able to find a hint as to what Bajorans believed the Tears of the Prophets even were, other than important for some reason. But important why? Are they like Medieval relics, pieces of holy magic? Or are they messages from the Gods, for those who manage to figure out how to read them? Or are they gifts a la Excalibur, the Ark of the Covenant, the Kabala stone, etc.? I don't know, and neither does anyone else because no one with the authority to do so ever made a decision.
And I gotta say, Babylon 5 got away with referring to a female Pope and a married couple who were both Jesuit priests. BSG had all the heroes be polytheists while the evil Cylons worshiped just one God. Mentioning religion is hardly the stuff to ruin the ratings of a show. At worst you get a few die-hard science fiction fans foaming at the mouth at the idea a high tech society would still have a religion.
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Generally, because I'm not here to answer all of the questions you asked. All I did was give you a link to what is officially known about the Bajoran religion, and that for a series set in the Star Trek universe, it is pretty thorough.
Have you ever considered that people understand, you're just not satisfied with the answers they give, and likely won't be? You don't seem to approach the question with genuine curiosity, but more with a zeal that fosters a need for the Bajoran religion to be complete, to make it more real. Well, the fake religion they made for a space TV show to glue together several plot points can't accomplish that for you, I'm sorry.
The Bajoran religion was not the primary focus of the series. It's essential to some major plot points, but it isn't a catechism on Bajoran philosophy and belief. That being said, I had no issue whatsoever understanding why the orbs were important to the Bajorans. I understand why the Bajorans believe as they do, and why they hold to their faith so tightly. So if the basic gist of the message is put across, and people get it, mission accomplished. You want more, I get that, but that doesn't mean they didn't make a solid effort. They gave it more effort than any previous Trek series, and any series made since.
I think that Babylon 5 did a fairly good job with religion. Several different Earth faiths were displayed-religions with ancient roots. This rang true.
Aliens also had religions. There was the Minbar religious caste, for example.
I recall a scene where Drazi pilgrims were going through customs.
Aliens also had religions. There was the Minbar religious caste, for example.
I recall a scene where Drazi pilgrims were going through customs.
Okay. I'll admit some genuine frustration, mostly because people seem to be trying to answer my question and concerns without addressing what I actually say. So please forgive my misunderstanding of your intention in posting the link?
But allow me to voice what seems to me perfectly valid criticisms of how DS9 portrayed Bajoran religion especially given the title of this thread. Consider this particular show gave us the most fully realized alien culture in TREK--the Cardassians. Not in terms of data, but understanding how Cardassian culture worked, how it viewed the world. But even though hardly an episode did not in some way deal with Bajor or Bajorans--a people we are told over and over again are very religious, how religion is central to their lives--after seven years I cannot tell you much of anything at all about how Bajorans looked at the universe, much less how their faith informed their actions. Yet I know a whole lot of the Cardassians and the Ferengi from the same show. At the end of TOS I had a pretty clear if basic understanding of Vulcans. After ENT the Andorians and their world view seems very clear. But Bajor...next to nothing. What I do understand about them is as an oppressed people who have thrown off the yoke of their conquerors. Yeah, that worked.
Even though many storylines and individual episodes dealt specifically with Bajoran religion, after seven years I know next-to-nothing. Even though the Bajoran religion was indeed a major focus of the series. I never asked for a copy of their holy scrolls, or a Wikipedia article about the nuances of their theological schools. I just wanted a consistent set of ideas presented, ideas the Bajorans shared which impacted how they behaved. Not a complete rundown, but as strong a sense as we got with Cardassians, Klingons, Vulcans, Ferengi and Andorians.
That seems to me a perfectly valid criticism. More--and this really is a huge source of frustration--I'm not talking about specific myths, what they call their clerics, which items are revered, how old the oldest temple on the planet is, etc. I'm talking about beliefs that inform behavior.
But allow me to voice what seems to me perfectly valid criticisms of how DS9 portrayed Bajoran religion especially given the title of this thread. Consider this particular show gave us the most fully realized alien culture in TREK--the Cardassians. Not in terms of data, but understanding how Cardassian culture worked, how it viewed the world. But even though hardly an episode did not in some way deal with Bajor or Bajorans--a people we are told over and over again are very religious, how religion is central to their lives--after seven years I cannot tell you much of anything at all about how Bajorans looked at the universe, much less how their faith informed their actions. Yet I know a whole lot of the Cardassians and the Ferengi from the same show. At the end of TOS I had a pretty clear if basic understanding of Vulcans. After ENT the Andorians and their world view seems very clear. But Bajor...next to nothing. What I do understand about them is as an oppressed people who have thrown off the yoke of their conquerors. Yeah, that worked.
Even though many storylines and individual episodes dealt specifically with Bajoran religion, after seven years I know next-to-nothing. Even though the Bajoran religion was indeed a major focus of the series. I never asked for a copy of their holy scrolls, or a Wikipedia article about the nuances of their theological schools. I just wanted a consistent set of ideas presented, ideas the Bajorans shared which impacted how they behaved. Not a complete rundown, but as strong a sense as we got with Cardassians, Klingons, Vulcans, Ferengi and Andorians.
That seems to me a perfectly valid criticism. More--and this really is a huge source of frustration--I'm not talking about specific myths, what they call their clerics, which items are revered, how old the oldest temple on the planet is, etc. I'm talking about beliefs that inform behavior.
I suppose as they're recovering from tragedy and picking up the pieces, they're more focused on recovery and survival than metaphysical debates. 
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There is nothing more than what has already been told. This is why you don't think people are answering your questions, because you ask questions that cannot be answered in any official capacity. I could make things up for you, and feed you those answers, but then the next person will have their own personal canon, and you'll be back where you started. What I'm trying to say it "THERE IS NO MORE THAN WHAT YOU'VE SEEN ON TELEVISION."
If you don't like that, again, fine, but you can't get mad at people for not being able to give answers to questions that don't have answers.
Maybe one of the novels goes more in detail than the shows do.
I ask a bunch of rhetorical questions to make a point--and that point is then dismissed, initially by ignoring those rhetorical questions altogether. I have a critique of how DS9 portrayed Bajoran culture and religion. I try and demonstrate that critique by asking questions to which we were never given any answers--and I even say as much. Then am criticized for asking questions to which there are no answers! Instead I'm told these questions can have no answers--even after I give specific examples of how these very same questions were answered for other TREK civilizations, and in other space opera t.v. shows.
So in effect I'm getting one non sequitur after another.
So in effect I'm getting one non sequitur after another.
We have what we have on the Bajorans. Not sure the problem, if the elements you wanted were needed for a story, they would've been included. Since they weren't, you can let your imagination run wild.
Okay, just to reply to this. I'm referring to spending the better part of seven years interacting with a civilization whom we're told is centered around its religion. And many episodes as well as entire multi-episode (and multi-season) plot lines deal with that religion. Yet next to nothing about the beliefs of that religion--especially when it comes to how those beliefs impact behavior--are ever revealed.I suppose as they're recovering from tragedy and picking up the pieces, they're more focused on recovery and survival than metaphysical debates.
This is my criticism of how DS9 treated the subject, the subject of this thread. And my point is that DS9 treated religion in a mediocre fashion, lacking any detail or much of a thought in that direction.
Hmmm...sorry but this is an appeal to authority. You're essentially saying the writers on DS9 made no mistakes, when my whole argument is they did. So you're just saying I must be wrong because the writers could not be.
Understandable. So they used it less effectively than they could have. Okay. But they used it more often than others had, and made the characters be said to practice it/believe in it (whatever "it" was) more than before.
That's the good part; smart people who believe in something that (occasionally or often) hampers "progress"/conflicts with scientifically accepted "reality". Yet they're still valued, not always shown to be merely stupid, ignorant, and willfully blind.
That's the good part; smart people who believe in something that (occasionally or often) hampers "progress"/conflicts with scientifically accepted "reality". Yet they're still valued, not always shown to be merely stupid, ignorant, and willfully blind.
It isn't "right" or "wrong", they made a creative choice. Some will agree with it, some won't. They didn't feel the need to flesh out certain aspects of the Bajoran religion and it was their ball to play with.
Yeah, okay. But I still don't think this makes it any less a mediocre portrayal of faith just because it was a less overtly prejudiced one.
BillJ, from this comment may I safely conclude you believe every choice made by all the writers in every TREK is neither right nor wrong?
I should mention, by way of context, I am a professional playwright and theatre critic. Thus it is kinda/sorta my entire career to make a judgment as to the quality of my own as well as other folks' writing. More, I am not addressing the overall quality of the series or its plotlines (although so far DS9 is my fave TREK of all) but its success or failure in portraying an alien culture specifically described as defined by their religion--a culture with which we the audience were in constant contact for the better part of a decade. Imagine such a failing when it came to the Ferengi's business practices, how Vulcans looked at emotion, what it means to be warrior if you're a Klingon.
Objectively? No creative choice is right or wrong. Creative process is a personal journey.
Yay?
Just perspective. As I said it is my profession to judge whether writing is good or bad, whether it works or not in a variety of ways. So appeal to "No creative choice is right or wrong" frankly means I should stop writing reviews or giving feedback--and that I should stop asking for feedback for my own works. I don't think I should.
Not at all. But, it is your perspective you are reviewing from. We aren't all pigeons that just fall in line. Creative works mean different things to different people. Just because you think something is bad (or missing), means that everyone thinks it is bad (or wanted it to begin with).
For whatever reason, DS9 took the road it took (I don't think it damaged the story in any way). Instead of blasting them for it, maybe you should hunt down some of the writers and try to figure out why they took the road they took? I know that @David Mack posts over in Trek Lit. He may have some insights to why decisions were made?
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Guest
It's because you're asking for more than what there is, and getting frustrated because that's all there is officially. Anyone can build their own personal headcanon, but no one has to regard it as anything approaching satisfactory. What we got for DS9 is what we got. You'll just have to work with that.
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